The B-I-B-L-E, Part 1
Jul.11, 2008 in
Podcast Episodes
With disclaimers abounding, Ray and Steve begin a series examining various beliefs and positions regarding the Bible. Questions discussed in this opening episode revolve around a discussion of the relationship of the written text to the revelation of God in Jesus, the role of scripture in a believer’s life, etc.
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July 13th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
OUTRAGE! HERETICS! BLASPHEMERS!
Hey, did I get your attention? Great podcast, guys. Keep up the good work.
Steve and I actually talked about some of these same issues on the golf course a few weeks ago, so I thought that was pretty cool–maybe I helped out a bit, huh? In a word, I think we all may be a littel guilty of “bibliolatry.”
July 14th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Tony, talking with you that day definitely helped frame some of these things for me even more clearly.
Thanks for listening and for encouraging us!
July 14th, 2008 at 11:23 am
2/3s of the way through and I’m not breaking out the kindling yet. Good stuff guys!
July 14th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Let me know how that last 1/3 works for you, Scott 😉
No seriously, thanks for the encouragement. I know you and I have had some discussions about this type of topic in the past and haven’t always seen eye to eye, but you’ve always been a gentleman.
Thanks 🙂
July 14th, 2008 at 11:43 am
The rest went down smooth. I’m putting my matches away…for now. 😀
I look foraward to the next installment.
July 14th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Tony,
I think that biblioidolatry is a real issue in the Body. Hopefully we can help each other think through what the real purpose of the Bible is. This is something that I have not completely settled for myself yet.
Scott,
Thanks for putting down the gasoline! I’m too young to die!
July 30th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Typing along while listening….
Re: The “living” Word of God, I liken that phrase to “God’s house” in reference to the Church. The building is not God’s house, we are. By the same token, the Bible is not alive, it points to he who is alive for eternity.
Blasphemy is a strong term, but you got guts, Raborn. I love that. You blew my mind about the “word of God” scripture in Hebrews. Wow. That totally changes the paradigm on that passage! I am reminded of Jesus saying “I have not come to bring peace but a sword.”
WHOA, Sir Mix-a-lot reference! Nicely done!
You struck on something I’ve been thinking for a long time. I have gone through a very dry spell of not reading the Bible, not spending any time in prayer, all the things that people tell you you’re supposed to do when you’re a Christian. I won’t lie and tell you I haven’t suffered for it. I have. But I didn’t want to do anything just because someone tells me I’m supposed to. The checklist analogy resonates with me.
I do, however, believe there is a benefit to studying the Bible, reading it consistently, and remembering all that it says. My dad compares it to food. It doesn’t really matter which part you read, what time of day you read it, or that you read it every day, but as long as you’re consuming the Bible, God will use it and bless its reading. I don’t believe that you have to read through the whole thing a certian number of times, and in fact I think the book of Numbers could be thrown out (grin).
re: The Bible being the way god speaks to us, someone once told me, and I think it was a pastor, that prayer is not just our time to talk to God, but we also need to be quiet and listen, and that God also uses that time to speak to us. We forget sometimes that the Holy Spirit still speaks directly to us, probably because we don’t like this sort of metaphysical relationship God has with us, instead preferring the quantitative, measurable, physical relationship we have with the page.
…and then you mention the prayer/bible thing! Heh.
November 13th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Good discussion guys. Thanks. I appreciate the BtB podcasts. Just started listening the last couple of weeks (Nov 08) so I’m a little late in commenting but here goes:
I get what you guys are saying here… basically that it’s not healthy to substitute scripture for a relationship with Jesus. I agree. Working through Scripture just to work through it has always struck me as contrived behavior. Same for prayer. It does however feel like you’re treating scripture a little too lightly though. It’s almost like you’re saying “once you arrive at the theme park, you can throw the map away.” In that analogy, the only thing the map is good for is to get you there but scripture is so much more than that. But I understand you guys are just encouraging your brothers and sisters in Christ to realize the inspired words of God is not The Word of God Himself.
I do have to call Steve out on the creation account in Genesis. 🙂 I’m a young-earth, 6 literal 24-hour days creationist (as the world likes to use labels). Genesis was written as a literal historical account, no mistaking that. That’s not being dogmatic, that’s just a fact. The literary style is typical Jewish “historical narrative” as opposed to the book of Psalms that uses symbolic expressions and poetry. And you have to do some serious stretching to interpret the word “day” in the creation account as an “age”. But I’ve never questioned someone’s salvation if they believe in any of the multitude of ideas, such as Theistic Evolution or Intelligent Design. I use to entertain such ideas myself while at the same time being 100% Christian. But in the end, these ideas ultimately compromise the very plain reading of Genesis. I’ve also never met or heard of any other creationist who thinks the way you described but sorry if you have. And hey, just because that person was wrong about your salvation doesn’t mean he was wrong about creation.
So why is the timeframe of creation important if it has nothing to do with our salvation? Well, just like the relational aspects of what you guys are talking about on this podcast, our beliefs about the creation account affects the picture you have of our Father. Think about it this way: What if God actually did create everything in 6 literal days like He said He did? Would that have any ramifications to how you view God? I’ll be glad to discuss further if interested.
Thanks again guys! Good stuff.
November 15th, 2008 at 8:39 am
I would like to clarify my comment “But I understand you guys are just encouraging your brothers and sisters in Christ to realize the inspired words of God is not The Word of God Himself”. I left out the part where I disagree on. I should say: If you are indeed saying God’s words are not God Himself, I’m not sure I agree in light of John 1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
Jesus, the Creator, is the Word. The Bible is the written Word. Every word in the Bible is really the Word of the Creator—Jesus Christ. Since the Word is Jesus, it doesn’t seem like Jesus and His Word can be separated and it doesn’t make much sense that Scripture is only a static “road map” to destination “Christ”.
What I was agreeing with is that we (Christians) do have the tendency sometimes to read Scripture as an end unto itself (checklist mentality). Same thing with prayer, attending church, etc.
Sorry for rambling.
November 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Jason, thanks for your interaction. Glad you feel the freedom to disagree with us. A couple clarifications, if I might:
I was not discounting a literal 6-day creation. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, I was not stating a position on it one way or the other. I was simply talking about people who tie one’s view of creation to their ability to believe for salvation. If you’re not familiar with Answers in Genesis, Google them and see how they approach the topic. I’ve watched some of their videos/DVDs and have not liked the tone I’ve seen. They tie everything to a literal interpretation of a 6-day creation.
Second, regarding John 1:1. I think that the concept of “Logos” in Greek thinking at the time of John’s gospel is way too high-level to think that John was referring to the written words of the scripture. John was using (to my understanding) a philosophical model of his time to introduce Jesus to his readers.
At the risk of playing “scripture fencing”, allow me to remind you of Jesus’ own words later in the book of John where he criticized the Pharisees for thinking that life was found within the words of scripture. Rather, he said, they point to him.
If, indeed, your assertion is correct that the scripture is God Himself, then scripture would, in fact, be life. And Jesus’ statement would make no sense.
I think you have illustrated the very difficulty we addressed in this episode wherein we see “Word” and we automatically think “Bible”.
November 15th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Good to hear from you Jason! I’m at work right now so I can’t take time to comment, but I will try to chip in my thoughts some time this weekend. Keep the dialog going…carry on 🙂
November 15th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
OK I was going to email this to you because it’s long (Again… sorry!), but I was just reading Romans and for some reason my mind made the substitutions below. Read it here then check out the original here Romans 2&3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=31. Let me know what you all think!!
The Christians and the Bible
17Now you, if you call yourself a Christian; if you rely on the Bible and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the Bible; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the Bible the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the Bible, do you dishonor God by breaking the Bible? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Un-Saved because of you.”[b] 25Salvation has value if you observe the Bible, but if you break the Bible, you have become as though you had not been Saved. 26If those who are not Saved keep the Bible’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were Saved? 27The one who is not Saved physically and yet obeys the Bible will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and Salvation, are a Biblebreaker. 28A man is not a Christian if he is only one outwardly, nor is Salvation merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Christian if he is one inwardly; and Salvation is Salvation of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.
God’s Faithfulness
1What advantage, then, is there in being a Christian, or what value is there in Salvation? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”[a] 5But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—”Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.
No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Christians and Un-Saved alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”[c] 13″Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”[d] “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e] 14″Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[f] 15″Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16ruin and misery mark their ways, 17and the way of peace they do not know.”[g] 18″There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[h] 19Now we know that whatever the Bible says, it says to those who are under the Bible, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the Bible; rather, through the Bible we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from Bible, has been made known, to which the Bible and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the Bible? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the Bible. 29Is God the God of Christians only? Is he not the God of Un-Saved too? Yes, of Un-Saved too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the Saved by faith and the unSaved through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the Bible by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the Bible.
November 16th, 2008 at 12:33 am
Steve,
Yes, my brother, I jumped the gun a bit on creation. my bad. You’re right, you guys didn’t take a position. I assumed that you yourself didn’t believe in a literal interpretation. You may or may not, I don’t know, sorry about that. But I did respond to your point, before I went off on the creation tangent, that I’ve never heard any creationist argument declare you must believe in the literal creation account in order to be saved. I’m glad you brought up AiG. I am very familiar with them and very much compelled by their approach (as you can probably tell). Ken Hamm and his AiG organization is who I mainly had in mind when I said I’ve never heard any creationist say “you’re not saved unless you agree with a literal view”. I think you may be making an assumption about AiGs position the same way I made an assumption about yours. [Oh no, am I making an assumption that you’re making an assumption? aaahhh! 🙂 ] Anyway, I’ve read multiple articles by AiG over the last couple of years and remember reading (more than once) that they believe you can still be a Christian while being wrong about any of the day-age theories that are out there. In fact many of their contributors use to fit that description. Their point is that if you do this, you are unwittingly compromising scripture and your effectiveness as a defender of what God has revealed about Himself, the true history of the world, and His plan of redemption for us.
Yes, AiG does connect most everything to a literal interpretation, but it’s a connection to the first 11 chapters of Genesis (mainly), not just the 6-day creation event. I don’t think they have a “tone” but rather an approach to communicating the gospel. They have a back-to-basics approach, from what I gather, which recognizes that the world (non-believers) and much, if not most, of the modern church (believers) doesn’t fully understand WHY we need Christ in the first place. You cannot answer that question without a literal understanding of Genesis. BTW, can you think of any issue or topic that doesn’t connect in some way to Genesis?
—-
On “The Word”: Ultimately you’re right. See if we agree with this: God’s words are not God Himself, but God’s Word (Jesus) is God Himself. Seems I was confused on the difference in terms… thanks. But please keep in mind, that doesn’t necessarily mean I was confused about who God actually is. For instance, I never thought that the physical words represented by ink on paper are actually Jesus Himself… nor would I treat a Bible as an object of worship… nor would I agree with the Pharisee’s perversion of the Old Testament law.
Upon reflection, I may have gotten us off on a road I really didn’t intend. I’m good like that. I was really more concerned about discussing the authority of God’s word. I go back to one of my first comments: “It does however feel like you’re treating scripture a little too lightly though. It’s almost like you’re saying “once you arrive at the theme park, you can throw the map away.” In that analogy, the only thing the map is good for is to get you there but scripture is so much more than that.” If memory serves, it seems you guys were questioning whether we even needed certain parts of scripture anymore since we’re under the New Covenant. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t you questioning the 66 book canon, the original language and multiple translations issues, etc.?
Thanks again guys! may be a while before I can jump back in…
November 16th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Jason,
I’m glad to see your interaction here. I think that what Steve and I are finding ourselves more and more uncomfortable with is not the Bible itself, but the unscriptural role that the evangelical Church at large continually assigns to the Bible. I have heard on multiple occasions that the Bible is the main way that God speaks to us. But, Jesus Himself said that it is the role of the Holy Spirit to “teach us all things, guide us into all truth and show us things to come”.
it seems you guys were questioning whether we even needed certain parts of scripture anymore since we’re under the New Covenant
I think that one of the mistakes that some believers make is treating the Bible as an “owner’s manual”; ie. a collection of propositional statements that stand independently of one another. If it is true that Scripture is the record of a progressive revelation (which I believe it is), then, for instance, shouldn’t we give more weight to what is revealed in the New Testament that to what has been revealed in the Old? In other words, while it is impossible to understand the entire significance of the New without the Old, the New Covenant supercedes the Old by leaps and bounds (as the entire book of Hebrews shows) and actually replaces the Old.
I believe that the most important principle in divine revelation though, is that according to Hebrews 1:1-2 God has revealed Himself completely in Jesus, and therefore Jesus becomes the end-all-be-all interpretive lens through which we are to view God and His interactions with us. Jesus, Himself, said that Scripture points to Him.
I think that many believers are uncomfortable putting their complete trust in the Holy Spirit to guide them in their relationship with God. It feels much more dangerous to actually trust the promptings on the inside of us than to attend a Bible study where, many times, we are not even learning the message of Scripture, but rather someone else’s interpretation/application of the same.
These are just my thoughts though…and I’m open to the idea that they are just faulty ramblings. 🙂
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
First of all, I just started listening to your podcast today as you recently joined a board I visit. Somewhat different from the few other podcasts I’ve listened to, your titles seem to indicate that you address significant issues. And, having listened to most of your inaugural podcast, I get the impression that you guys have the background and education to carry this on for a while without getting bogged down in simply trying to entertain. So thank you for your effort.
I think I have a good idea what you are saying about the scriptures because I have a similar view. At least as far as not questioning it goes, I have full confidence in scripture and have no qualms about using it to prove or disprove or open up an issue. With that said, like you, I don’t find in scripture a mandate for putting it up on the kind of pedestal that it has been placed upon. And I think the only reason it is not to be put on that pedestal is that it necessarily puts the mind of man on the same pedestal.
This is a difficult issue to convey – as I’m sure you well know. Because on the one hand, one does not want to disparage the scriptures at all – but at the same time, to put it in a place it doesn’t put itself is also wrong. So while on the one hand it is true that Christianity is just another dead religion without the Spirit of God, at the same time, that Living God has said that anyone whose words don’t agree with the Law and the Prophets (which both point to Christ) is not to be received. It also says (paraphrased) that the Spirit and the Word agree. Scripture IS sufficient…but only for the purpose that it was given. Hebrews 4:12 (which you brought up in the podcast) is a good case for the understanding that scripture CANNOT (of itself) do what the Living Word can do by the Sword of the Spirit. But to separate the two is to risk giving it a division wider than that between thoughts and intents. In other words, when someone reads scripture and God opens their eyes to see what is being taught, then the understanding of scripture is open to them. Not because of scripture, but scripture is nonetheless completely true and, being blind, they now see.
As you say, though, the bible points to Christ and to the Holy Spirit – not to itself. Paul declares, in 2 Cor 3, that they were made ministers of the spirit and NOT the letter (which kills – whereas the Spirit gives life). And John, writing to people before the bible was completed, says that the believer has need of NO man to teach him. Not because of scripture, but because of the anointing (i.e. the leading of the Holy Spirit). Jesus did say that the Spirit would lead the believer into all truth.
Then again, the accounts of scripture are totally reliable. And since many people don’t distinguish between the voice of the Spirit and the voice of Spirit as God speaks through scripture, their view of scripture (we have to believe) comes because the Lord does indeed reveal the scriptures to them. If that person were to believe that the Bible IS not the Word of God, they would too easily cast away the baby with the bathwater. Could someone hear the voice of the Spirit without scripture? Absolutely. Could someone come to salvation without the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not! But how has the Lord chosen to reveal Himself? By revealing Himself to a few who then, through the foolishness of preaching and writing, deliver the same message to others. Jesus didn’t choose 12,000 people to reveal Himself to – just 12. THEY then went and turned the entire world upside down (or right side up, depending on how you look at it). Where the problem comes is not in scripture but it is in man. And while the letters themselves may not have power, it was inspired by God and, therefore, has power given it even if only because it touches on things that pertain to eternal truth. The reason scripture doesn’t always show power is because the preaching isn’t always mixed with faith in those that hear it.
Revering scripture – so long as it does not take the place of the Spirit – is a good thing. Not because of its power, but because it is a faithful rendering. Many men paid dearly to get this book in our hands. Just like many men paid dearly to defend the very faith that the Bible bears, it must be that the message of scripture bears preservation and the affording it a unique place in the Christian faith (active faith, that is).
Too many thoughts to limit it to a single post…
May 29th, 2010 at 2:08 am
Wow! Praise to God that my friend let me know about your site. I am also from a Southern Baptist background and my husband is from a Lutheran background. However, God has led us both to see beyond our backgrounds and to be searching for fellowship with others of like mind.
Are one or both of you guys available for communication by email? I pray that God is bringing you through whatever you have been facing lately. He is able, and all glory to Jesus.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Ann Cantrell
annsavedbygrace@mchsi.com
May 29th, 2010 at 8:49 am
As I was thinking over the comment I left, it occurred to me that my pre-programed request for e-mail communication was not necessary. It may be your choice to respond in this podcast comment format. Could you just let me know one way or the other if you are/are not available. I wish to communicate with you, but understand you may not be available as it has been so long since you were able to be. You and your families are in my prayers.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Mrs. Ann Cantrell