What About Homosexuality?
Nov.12, 2008 in
Podcast Episodes
Is Homosexuality a sin? With debate raging around the country about California’s Proposition 8, Steve & Ray discuss how we as believers should respond. Should Christians seek to advance legislation that would outlaw same-sex marriage in order to “protect the institution of marriage”? Thanks to listener Big C for submitting this topic on our idea submission page! As always, we welcome your comments, questions, attaboys and disagreements in the comments section…and yes, you may burn us in effigy if you so choose!
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November 13th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Ok guys, you said it was ok to leave long posts! (Be careful what you wish for!!) 🙂 I’m reposting my thoughts that were on another site. This is a subject that is close to my heart, so I’ve been trying to ask the right questions.
In relation to adultery, Jesus said someone could remain pure in their physical body, but in their minds they have already sinned if they look upon a woman with lust. Do “reformed”/Christian/married homosexuals still think about being with someone of the same sex? If we get them to change their actions, but their mind is still where it shouldn’t be, then should we still call it “a success”?
If God saw the heart of gay believers (such as “Beep Beep” and Henri Nouwen) and still used their gifts to bless others when they were closeted, what does that say about His nature and attitude towards homosexuality? Is it more virtuous to hide sin and struggles?
Why do we equate “not hiding sin” with “loving or indulging in it”? Couldn’t “coming out” and admitting ongoing sin also be viewed as saying “I can’t fix myself – I give up”? Paul said if continue to sin, but we hate it, it’s not the real us (the regenerated us), but the sin that lives in us. Does this not apply to homosexuality?
If God instructs us to forgive our brother 70 times 7 for the same offense, AND to not “keep record of wrongs”, will he not also do much more than that for all of us? We will produce good fruit “in its season”, but who sets the curriculum of learning righteousness – US or the Holy Spirit? Who says that homosexuality will always be the FIRST sin everyone has to tackle in their Christian lives? What if, since it is such a big issue – such a major part of their psyche – God gives them an entire lifetime of grace to be changed? Whose workmanship are we and who is responsible to finish a good work in us?
Just to give us some empathy for those who struggle with homosexuality think of this: Men, what if it were proven through Scripture that it was a sin to be attracted to a tall, young, beautiful, fit woman, that you could only love and marry a 2000lb, 70 year old woman, with body odor and inappropriate body hair. (Not to say that the choice between same sex and opposite sex is exactly like this – I’m just using hyperbole) How easy would it be for you to change your attraction? If we believe that same-sex attraction is not something you were born with, but something that you acquire over the course of your life, then there is not much difference between the two situations. The type of person of the opposite sex you are attracted to is acquired as well. Think about how long it would take you to be attracted to and love that 2000lb woman. If you could force yourself to marry her, how tempted would you be to fantasize about someone more attractive? I take that back… the pull to homosexuality would be GREATER because it is a sin and sin is addictive and enslaving.
In this day and age we often have complications that other generations didn’t have to consider. Such as, what if a gay couple who has already adopted got saved? Should they destroy their family? When missionaries went to countries that practiced polygamy, most decided that it was unwise to break up the families because of the devastation it would cause. Should we apply that here?
What do we do with people who get saved after a sex change? Several years ago there was a story on CBN about this – I just don’t remember what their conclusions were. What if it’s salvation after a sex change and marriage/family (e.i. the “pregnant man” everyone was talking about earlier this year)?
What about hermaphrodites? I saw a story on the discovery channel about several adult hermaphrodites. The parents often choose a sex at birth and raise them that way but then their predominant gender isn’t apparent until after puberty and the hormones/emotions are still confused sometimes. If we accept that biologically there is something “off” with them shouldn’t we consider the potential for biological/physiological/emotional “off-ness” to lesser degrees in gays and transsexuals?
If even “creation groans in anticipation of redemption” (did I quote that right?), isn’t it possible that particular sins are hard-wired into our DNA so that when we are made into a new creation in Christ… when we are transformed by the renewing of our minds, it is actually a gradual healing of our DNA in addition to a redemption of our spirit?
I also totally agree with you guys that pointing out sin is not the way to evangelize… anyone. In a faith where ANY human righteousness is as filthy rags, the idea is not to be a spiritual version of the tv show “What not to wear” to beat people down and point out how filthy humanity’s rags are… it is to introduce them the person who provides new clothes.
Ahem… They don’t call me “Terminal Verbosity” for nothin’! 🙂
November 13th, 2008 at 4:26 am
Darn, I forgot something!.. Paul says it’s better to marry than to burn, which seems to indicate that people who burn probably aren’t in possession of “the gift of singlehood”.
What do we do about gays who burn? Are they condemned to a life of loneliness? (“It is not good for man to be alone”)
November 13th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Wow Gloria has some great points – but she is totally worng. No I am just kidding – she brings up some great questions. I had one – ok I had a flood of thoughts but will share the one most important to me. Christians/Church/Religion has forgotten that the light shining from the “city on the hill” is not a lazer death beam. The image I get now in my head is the big german prisons when some one escapes (in sin) and the claxxons go off and every one is yelling (german language sounds wonderfully scary doesn’t it), the dogs are barking, and the huge million candle watt spot lights click on(always with a really large click/boom sound), and fear for survival and safety are instilled in our hearts. That is the christian light today.
Your light however has brought me clartiy of mind and spirit, and raised a ton of other questions in my life that I am eagerly chasing down to find more answers and more questions.
Thanks
November 13th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
While I personally believe that homosexuality is a sin, I’m not going to argue the redundant and exhausted reasons here on your blog. But, if the only goal for Christians is to preserve the sanctity of the institution of marriage then they “should” have an advantage in that they know we have a rebellious sinful nature and how it operates. What I mean is if they are concerned only with the end result then Christians should push for legislation to mandate homosexual marriage to produce the opposite desired effect. Why not steal the enemies thunder and use it to our advantage? Reverse psychology is very powerful. If you are a parent you already know this.
One more thing not really related to the above. In most gay relationships it seems to me there is one partner who usually tries to emulate as much as possible the opposite sex. Doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose? Maybe someone can explain that one to me.
November 13th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
This is the third Beyond the Box I’ve listened to and once again I’m impressed. Your religious thoughts are reasoned and reflective. I think you are doing more than you know to reclaim Christianity from the abuse inflicted by the political right. You two are not just preaching to the choir because you now have at least one non-believer subscribed.
I wrote about my thoughts on this issue in a blog post: http://www.sidfaiwu.com/blog/index.php/2008/11/prop8/. I’m very interested in your thoughts on my opinion and whether you two see any common ground there.
November 13th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey….you watch too much TV. “In most gay relationships it seems to me there is one partner who usually tries to emulate as much as possible the opposite sex. Doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose?” Are you kidding me? I am a gay female very happily married as I as one of the 11000 that flocked to California to get married. I know it will only be a short time until I am no longer legally married. Folks are raceing at an alarming rate to revise Prop 8 to make it retroactive, they forgot to write that into the original one.
So enough on me. My partner and I have been together for many years. Not one of us is any more manly or butch than the other. However the same sorts of things that men traditionally due in a household still have to be done in ours. The trash does not automatically get itself to the curb every week and the lawn still needs to be mowed and things will always need to be repaired or fixed. You learn new things to make your life work. I love lacy things, cooking, crafts but I am also in charge of plunging the toilet, making the fire, and fixing whatever happens to fall apart because I am very mechanically minded. My other half loves to mow the lawn and because she gets up earlier got stuck with garbage duty. Neither of us try to emulate the opposite sex. We do what needs to be done to get make life work. Gone is the age where traditional gender roles hold men and women captive. My brother is an excellent chef and cleans a bathroom better than anyone professional I have ever met. He is also a very studley married man with children. He cares about his health and wants things clean. If people refuse to expand their minds and views then they will forever live in fear.
November 13th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I’ll get in line behind Sid Faiwu. I’m a non-believer, I’m gay, and (most importantly) I really despise chattycasting. I’m also subscribed now, thanks to @spiritualtramp pointing me over here. I think you guys are neat.
You have, by the way, hit on pretty much every point that just plain baffles “us” about enthusiastic christian anti-homosexual sentiments, and it’s… refreshing, maybe even a little healing, to hear that same bafflement come back over the giant scary chasm of OMGWTFBBQPONIESBLARGH.
And, hey, Jeffery? I’m not your enemy. I’m your neighbor.
November 13th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I heard from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from this chick that said you two held hands the entire time you recorded this. Very good, by the way.
November 13th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Wow. First of all J4J(?), thanks for the response. And yes, I watch too much t.v.:) I was not trying to be rude, just honestly curious. Thanks for the explanation.
Mer- I’m sorry if you thought I was calling homosexuals my enemy. I wasn’t. I was referring to a different enemy. I should have worded it: Why not steal Satan’s thunder and use it to our advantage. I realize that explanation probably isn’t going to appease you though. 75% of my comment was tongue-in-cheek. Please forgive me.
-Jeff
November 13th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Wow guys! So many good points and stimulating thoughts.
Gloria,
Welcome to BYB! You gave me a whole lot to ponder. I haven’t seen this issue from some of the angles you describe…I’ve got some thinkin’ to do 🙂
Big C,
Great word picture! I think that believers in Jesus many times have tried to scare people into the Kingdom of God. Isn’t God worth loving simply for who He is? Shouldn’t a relationship with God be something beautiful, stimulating and the fullest experience of unconditional love? If God is so mean and ugly that we have to coerce people into a relationship with Him then it’s probably not going to be much of a relationship, is it?
Jeffrey,
Thanks for dropping in and welcome! I wonder at times why we desire to cage people into the decisions that we believe are beneficial for them. If God gives people the ability to make right or wrong choices (which it seems obvious to me He does), why should I try and take that freedom away? I can disagree with someone, and even make it known, but I should be willing to allow that person to make up their own mind instead of trying to force my beliefs and ideas upon them.
Sid,
Thanks for your kind comments! I am honored to have you on this journey with us (and I know that Steve is as well). Your input is welcome here anytime, whether you agree with us or want to burn us yourself 😉 I will definitely check out your post and get back to you (Gettin’ ready to watch the Jets vs. Pats though–so it might be tomorrow :))
Just4Jeffrey,
Thank you for your input. It really blesses me that you feel comfortable enough here to open up and describe your relationship. I hope that you feel free to comment here anytime. I believe that one thing we all need is more civil dialog to help each of us better understand our neighbor.
Mer,
Welcome aboard! I am completely honored by your kind comments! It truly blesses me beyond words to hear that you are enjoying our podcast! I hope that over time the chasm gets smaller and smaller until we can finally see each other as being created in God’s image no matter our differences. Just one question…what is OMGWTFBBQPONIESBLARGH? 🙂
DAVe,
We didn’t hold hands—maybe you were thinking of the part when Steve pulled my finger 🙂 Thanks for dropping by…I hope you stay awhile, enjoy the scenery and let us know your thoughts
November 13th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Thanks for the welcome! I’ve truly enjoyed your podcasts and that you guys act like normal human beings, not know-it-alls! 😉 Very refreshing!
One last thing… Go Pats! 😀 Mwah ha ha ha!
November 13th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Oh, that? It’s a secret computer code designed by the Hidden Masters of the Gay Agenda. it’ll be attracting roving net bots soon, and they’ll reroute your website to… something… offensive…
I’m too tired to be facetious. It’s internetspeak for an inarticulate exclaimation of rage.
November 14th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Gloria,
Sorry for your pats…but Brett looked good.
Mer,
I got the OMGWTF, and I’m always up for a good BBQ…I just wasn’t used to PONIES being involved in an expletive 🙂
November 14th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Sorry I’m late to responding to the comments. I’m glad Ray jumped in already.
I am thrilled with the response to this topic and to the podcast overall. It’s fun to see it talked up on Twitter and on different blogs, too.
Keep the comments coming, and keep spreading the word.
November 15th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Hey guys,
This is my 2nd or 3rd episode (@spiritualtramp sent me over here) and I’m more and more impressed with you guys with each listen.
This is such a difficult issue and I appreciate that you’ve tried to tackle it. Your compassion and love and self-awareness shines through.
Even though I disagree that homosexuality is a sin (my thinking is not just out of the box, it’s completely out of the room), you brought up some very interesting questions and made some points, which I’m sure will continue to occupy my thoughts over the next few days.
Keep up the great work, and I look forward to hearing more from the voices of reason in the Christian world.
PS: I’m also a professional musician and look forward to getting to know your music too, Steve.
November 16th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Diane,
Thanks for stopping in and listening! Sometimes it’s hard to tackle such a controversial issue and still communicate love for those on both sides of the issue. It blesses me that you saw this in our dialog! I hope we get to hear more of your thoughts in the future.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Now if all the people I’ve sent to listen to your podcast would come and listen to one of mine… 😉
Okay I think most of them are but I’ll bite the bullet and say that y’alls “chattycast” (I like that term) is better than mine. When you release your first podcast novel I may be in trouble though.
Anyway, enough about how much better you are at this than me. This was a great show and you guys continue to drop some mad science yo.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Scott,
I have been so impressed by the people that have come from your site. You must be one quality dude! 🙂 Thanks so much for your help in getting us “out there”!
January 9th, 2009 at 9:26 am
I’m really late to the discussion here (I just discovered your podcasts yesterday) but I would like to make a comment on these subjects.
First off, it breaks my heart that much of the Christian community has treated homosexuals as a modern day leper colony. Is there a group of people who are more maligned and mistreated by the church because of their choices? I’m not disagreeing with your statement that homosexuality is a sin, and we need to somehow be able to guide those in homosexual sin to those passages of Scripture that seem clear on the subject and let the Holy Spirit do the work of convicting. It’s not our job to convict.
What many homosexuals are seeking to accomplish with marriage is the establishment of rights that married (and some unmarried) couples in the United States enjoy, some of which include visitation rights, insurance settlements, etc. It’s not an attempt to destroy marriage, but rather an attempt to gain what other people already enjoy. Here’s the kicker: What makes the sexual sin of homosexuality so different than my sexual sin of addiction to pornography. I’m still tempted nearly everyday with porn, though I no longer act on that temptation. However, during the time when I WAS acting on that temptation, nobody was trying to take away those same rights that homosexuals are now trying to obtain. What makes their sin unworthy of receiving state rights? There is such a hypocritical nature that Christians are (mostly unknowingly) operating in that is incredibly offensive to, dare I say it, God’s heart for the lost. The homosexual community will never be open to hearing our message until we repent of our ignorance, our hypocrisy and our discriminatory practices towards them.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
What does it mean that a comment seems “spammy”?
January 27th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
It means that the automated process that determines whether or not to approve a comment on the spot thinks that the comment might not be from a real human being, or may not be a legit comment. It usually notifies me, then, and I approve the comment if it’s actually part of the conversation.
It also may possibly have to do with the frequency with which you’ve been posting here. We’re glad to have you as a listener, and enjoy your enthusiasm in commenting!! But the computer might not have the same appreciation for it 😉
By the way, with the number of comments you have left, I hope you’ll understand if we don’t respond to each one. Many of your comments require me to go back and listen again to what we said, in some cases, several months ago! 😉 I would love to interact with each of your comments, but I’ll probably have to just pick and choose the ones I can answer on the spot.
By the way, if you are told by the server that your comment has been labeled as spam, email me and let me know and I’ll fish it out of the bin for you. If it goes to moderation, I’m automatically alerted to that, so no need to let me know if you get a response saying the comment is being moderated.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
No harm no foul. I figured my many posts in few days was probably at least part of the reason. And given the nature of the conversation, I wondered if there was an automatic filter as well.
As for responding, no problem if you don’t respond or do so weeks (or months…or years…) from now. I know the work you put into these things is significant and since it is not your main job, it requires all the more effort to get back into old conversations (old being maybe as recent as 1 week ago). In short, I understand and appreciate any response. At least I’m on record.
I may try the post again later (I saved a copy when I had the problems).
Thanks again.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
How do I email you guys? Or can you email me so I can try and resend the post. It keeps getting blocked.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
[From Steve: I’m posting this comment on behalf of William Tyndale, since our spam filter kept blocking it from appearing.]
I think the big issue with homosexuality has to do with justification. No one that I know of, in the Christian church, believes that adultery is right (or rather that the scriptures say adultery is NOT a sin). And that is identified as infidelity. Jesus was clear in saying that anyone who lusts in their heart is guilty of adultery. That may be something a little harder to take, but it is clear and unequivocally stated. So in the “Christian Community”, there are few (I’m aware of none, but you never can tell) who would say that it’s fine for a believer to look at pornography. There is a sense of right and wrong. There may be an epidemic of those caught in the web of lust, but in that situation (and in that of adulterous relationships), there is conviction that it is wrong.
Not so the homosexual community. What is clearly called a sin in scripture (I don’t believe that it, in and of itself, is a worse sin than heterosexual adultery) is looked upon as acceptable and to be embraced. This is outright rebellion. So in that sense, homosexuality is (and really always has been) a sin that manifests itself – most of the time, not always – in utter rebellion. That’s why Romans 1 speaks of God giving people over to a reprobate mind. There is no restraint, no remorse and no thought of repentance (because the idea is that none is needed). Homosexuality involves a deep twisting of something as fundamental as human sexuality. So when what is natural is corrupted and what is corruped is accepted as natural, you have some very deep rebellion going on that goes far beyond just a physical act. And it doesn’t happen overnight.
Which is why the idea of homosexual marriage should be an issue. It is an attempt to validate, justify and normalize that which God clearly calls sin. And just as the government giving money to abortion is funding murder, so is allowing homosexual marriage by law sanctioning open rebellion and sin. It is cultural anarchy codified.
Having said that, there are homosexuals who desire to turn from their sin. These have not sunk to the depths of others who seek to make a clear sin “okay” in the eyes of the world. And there’s nothing saying God’s grace can’t and doesn’t reach even the hardest hearts in any situation. But that in no way gives us permission to turn a blind eye when good is called evil and evil called good.
For that reason, I would be thrilled if the state were to stay out of marriages and leave it to the churches to allow or deny (and not prosecute when the church rightly denies marriage to a homosexual). It would be a step forward.
September 18th, 2011 at 10:44 pm
Wow, great discussions here! As we all are learning how to navigate in loving ways through these issues around sexual identity, our identity in Christ, and how that plays out in the cultures we find ourselves in …. I’d like to recommend to the wider group (who may be stopping in to view the comments) a particular blog post by Wendy Gritter, who has a bridge-building ministry to those who are “outside the margins of the heterosexual mainstream.” She talks about the concept of creating “generous space” in the discussions around this very sensitive issue .… an overall disposition that creates an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit can be working in everyone’s lives involved. Here’s the link (I hope this is OK to post): http://btgproject.blogspot.com/search/label/generous%20spaciousness
September 19th, 2011 at 6:28 am
Here is an earlier blog where Wendy talks about creating generous spaces….
http://btgproject.blogspot.com/search/label/generous%20spaciousness?updated-max=2010-02-04T12%3A07%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=20
September 19th, 2011 at 6:40 am
I’d like to bring up another senario that I wrestle with: How does a community of faith respond to a same-sex couple who come to faith in Jesus? Does the couple end their relationship altogehter, or just the physical part? What if they have children that they are raising together? Should that family be broken up? These are tough questions, but we need to be talking about them. It sure would be helpful to see this discussion (i.e. how to work out the “nitty-gritty”) continue here.
September 20th, 2011 at 8:20 pm
Judy,
Great questions! I think that this is a very important topic to dialog about as it seems to be unchartered territory for many of us. I don’t have answers for a lot of your questions, but I definitely think we need to have these conversations.
Consider throwing something out there on the Facebook page as this seems to be a great way to get discussions started.
June 8th, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Just wondering why jesus wouldn’t have mentioned homosexuality as being a sin if it was such a big deal?
He dealt with all other area’s of “sin” like drunkeness, adultery, stealing…on and on…but not homosexuality.
Could anyone comment on this?