Leaving the Institution
Dec.18, 2008 in
Podcast Episodes
Listener Ben K. recently asked several really good questions on the Idea Submission page. Specifically, Ben asked questions revolving around the idea of leaving the institutional church. How does one communicate that decision to the pastor without appearing to be criticizing that pastor’s work? In this episode, Ray and Steve discuss some of their own experiences in leaving the institution, and attempt to give some guarded advice to people like Ben who are heading in the same direction.
Near the end of the episode, we mention the book “So You Don’t Want to Go to Church Anymore”. If you’re interested in that book, you can go to www.JakeColsen.com.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 45:45 — 31.4MB) | Embed
December 18th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Good one as usual fellas. I know you weren’t precisely saying that all institutional churches are bad and weren’t calling for a mass exodus (though the overwhelming impression I got was that you didn’t think it would be the end of the world if that did happen). Do you think that the idea of an institutional church is completely without merit? If so why? If not why not? You’re not off the hook either way. 😉
December 18th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Hello Steve and Raborn,
This is quite an interesting episode. Raborn’s description of the feelings he had when he left the church really resonated with me. That bitterness and resentment lasted a long time with me. Mine may have lasted longer since I ultimately ended up rejecting the religion entirely. Still, it’s great to hear from someone who’s been through something similar.
There really wasn’t rejection by my church. I stopped attending about the same time I started college. That doesn’t seem all that unusual. I was encouraged to return but simply didn’t.
December 18th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
What I find interesting is because of your podcast I have been led back into the institution. I grew up as a southern baptist pastors kid in the institution for 18 years. I started seeking truth and left around 20yo or so. As a 31yo father of two I have been attending an “open to truth” church that is more free form and less rigid. And I was open to that because you guys showed me that being free doesn’t exclude being part of the institution. Thanks for being real and honest.
December 18th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I am listening further as you describe the rigidity and format of the church, and how even when seperating you felt and see that others need to return to the same form. And I can’t help but think that is nothing new. IN Jesus’ day the “church” was in full effect in the temples. They had processes, schedules, form, and rigidity. Quick example is the woman who gave what she had which wasn’t much vs the dude who gave a lot that wasn’t a tenth of what he had and the church heralded him. Anyway The church rejected jesus because he didn’t fit their form, and yet all of the churches the DESCIPLES started fell into form, rigidity, ect…. Jesus Didn’t come to start the church – and conversly never did anything at all church like period. It isn’t “church is the way, the truth, the life” is it. I see the exact thing you speak of today all throughout the new testament, and if I was better edjucated probably the old testament. One of the truest verses I have ever read was from the prophets mouth – There is nothing new under the sun….
December 18th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Great episode guys! Thanks for addressing my post/suggestions. As usual, you both have great insight.
Specifically to my situation, I’m really good friends with my pastor and knowing his heart, I’m sure we can disagree on this without damaging our relationship. In fact, my pastor has often said that we get more out of a lunch get-together than we do at church because of the demands on his time…that right there should tell us something!
I’m a little disappointed that despite my request for more of Ray’s singing, he didn’t break into song…not even once! Guess I’ll have to find a new topic to post about 🙂 Peace, Brothers!
December 20th, 2008 at 3:24 am
Thanks everyone!
Scott,
I don’t think that the institution is “without merit” completely in that I do believe that good happens within this structure. However, the question I ask is not simply utilitarian or pragmatic. I want to know if what we have today as the “church” is truly God’s intention and this is where I begin to have my doubts. I think that the institution has done and continues to do alot of good in spreading the Gospel and helping the downcast. I just think that we could be alot more effective if we got rid of man-made control structures and actually operated as the family that, I believe, God intended the Body of Christ to be.
Sid,
I’m glad this resonated with you. I think that alot of people have felt this way, but are hesitant to talk about it for whatever reason. I believe that many confuse God with religion and, in their distaste for the latter, end up walking away from them both. I don’t think it has to be that way. 🙂
Big C,
Keep on following the Father in whatever He leads you to do to grow in your relationship with Christ!
Ben K,
I am glad that you have a great relationship! I have often heard ministers say that they believe people get more out a small group gathering, and yet this is the exception within the institution instead of the rule. Why is it that we continue to perpetuate practices that even the leaders see as less effective? Anyway, I hope that this episode helped and I pray that whatever decisions you make you will sense the Father’s peace in them! 🙂
Everyone,
I am so thankful for each of you and for your taking the time to listen to two “everyday Joes” talk about subjects important to us! I am really enjoying being able to “think out loud” through this medium. In the past, I would have been more guarded about what thoughts I “let out of the bag”, but I am finding that the best way to think these things through is simply to let what is running around inside my head out there for people to ponder and critique. This is a growing experience for me!
December 20th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Steve and Raborn,
I finally started listening to your podcasts. I listened to 6 of them on our drive from NC to AL. Very good stuff! I’ve had the opporutnity to have similar conversations regularly with coworkers and friends. What a blessing it is to be able to talk through these issues in freedom and love and fellowship.
As for this last podcast, I appreciate your heart in answering the questions you were asked. Our relationship with God which is demonstrated in our relationships with other people must be paramount. If something (institution, meeting type, leadership, etc) hinders the people of God from relating to one another, then those things must change.
Thanks again, and I’m looking forward to future podcasts!
-Alan
December 22nd, 2008 at 12:40 am
Alan,
Thanks for listening! True that it’s function over form! 🙂
January 7th, 2009 at 7:00 am
[…] Leaving the Institution […]
January 29th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
This is more of a question than anything (and if you answer it anywhere else, please direct me there).
I have heard many people speak about the Christian church “system” in many ways (including calling it THE Babylon of Revelation). And usually the people doing the speaking have been hurt or offended in church. I really don’t know if that’s the case with you guys (and really doesn’t affect the question too much), but in every case, someone has problems with the system. Not surprising – anyone who has problems with anything is tempted to leave (including divorcing for reasons as simple as convenience). So my question has to do with what you guys believe is a reason to leave the institutional church.
I ask partly because the “institutional church” is a vague definition. It could mean anything from any sort of structure at all to the Episcopal church around the corner with a high liturgy. So it is almost the case that one needs a definition of the institutional church to know what one is leaving. And, once that is defined, what does one identify as the standard for remaining in or leaving that system?
I’ve heard many reasons for why they don’t go to church anymore, but I’ve never heard any sort of guideline as to what the right standard for leaving really is. Probably because most identify their hurt or offense etc… as the reason they finally left.
Basically, I’m looking for a good definition of the institutional church (and how one defines not being in it) and what standard should be used to determine whether or not one (or anyone, depending on one’s viewpoint) should be in it.