What About the 5-Fold Ministry?
Jan.17, 2009 in
Podcast Episodes
Listener Chip asked some follow-up questions to our recent discussions regarding the institutional church. Specifically, Chip’s questions revolve around the “leadership” gifts in the New Testament (see Ephesians 4), and how they might play out in a less-structured, less-formal environment. Are there “offices” that need to be filled with specific people at all times in the church? And if not, what’s the point of those gifts even being listed?
Ray and Steve share their open-ended thoughts in response.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 36:58 — 25.4MB) | Embed
January 17th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
We have made leadership one of the major defining factors for the church. And while we see leaders in Scripture, they never define the church.
All of the spiritual gifts lists in Scripture are considered incomplete (samples) except for Eph 4:11. I tend to see Eph 4:11, like all of the other spiritual gift lists, as examples of the way God works through people. But, as Eph 4:16 makes clear, its not the working of just apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers that are necessary for the growth of the body. Instead, all believers working together as God gifts them causes the body to grow.
When we focus on Eph 4:11, and make 4:16 a footnote, we miss the most important factor in this passage.
-Alan
January 17th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Well said, Alan. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. The whole body is absolutely necessary!
January 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Heh, you called me out. 🙂 I don’t trust my gut feelings. I still don’t get how you know that a feeling is from God without relying on another feeling that tells you it’s from God. It seems circular. I’m enjoying the discussions even if I’ve been quite recently.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I just realized that I have been looking forward to listening to you guys for a time now, and haven’t let you know. Thanks guys, for your way of sharing parts of your life, and hearts that really is filled with humor, depth, ideas, and LIFE.
In my thanks, I do pray blessings upon you guys, and your families. I continue to look forward to more banter, laughter and deep thoughts and ideas.
This particular podcast really helps us all to go to the depth of our identity in God, and all that entails, rather than getting hung up in the forms and formulas and all those other things that sap the LIFE out of this time on earth.
Blessings
Heather from Alaska
January 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I have come to understand that God gives a spiritual gift to someone, and then gives that person as a gift to others in the body. Our selfish nature wants to make God’s gifts about ourselves, so thinking about a gift within the body as an office or title is very appealing. However, the language of Corinthians and Ephesians is not about the self or person receiving the gift, but about building up others. In my opinion, if we truly loved and served others with whatever gifts God has given us, we wouldn’t need to worry about such things as honor, respect or influence. We certainly wouldn’t need to lean on a title or positional power in order to have them.
Another thing I’ve learned is that apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher is not an office that you hold or even an activity that you do – it is something you are. God gifted me as a teacher. In the traditional church setting that gift manifested itself primarily as preparing lessons to share before a class, or writing curriculum for other teachers. But having a class didn’t make me a teacher. Having a class is just one way the gift of teaching can be expressed – and it may not even be the most effective way. For over a year now I’ve enjoyed being part of a house church. At first I struggled internally with what my role as a teacher should look like in a house church setting. Then I realized that it didn’t need to look like anything. I could just be myself and let the Holy Spirit do what he wanted. In the past year I’ve only given two formal lessons, and to be honest I question how effective they really were. While it’s true that I frequently contribute to discussions and share insights, I’ve found that the greatest impact I’ve had within the body has been simply asking questions. The Holy Spirit has used those questions to greater impact than if I had tried to provide the answers. I guess what I’m trying to say is that God’s Spirit and his gifts will manifest themselves in whatever context the body has gathered in. We just want to be open to God’s Spirit and give place for his gifts.