What Do We Do with the Old Testament?
Feb.11, 2009 in
Podcast Episodes
This question has appeared in various forms in response to some of the previous episodes. In the recent discussions here on the blog, it has surfaced again, and so this episode takes a stab at providing some thoughts on the role/purpose of the Old Testament.
Ray and Steve discuss the implication of Jesus’ comments that the scripture (at the time, what we would call the Old Testament) point to him for life and are not, in and of themselves, a source of life. They also talk once again about the way the book of Hebrews talks about the revelation of Jesus and how that seems to put a different emphasis on how we relate to, and understand, the Father.
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February 11th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
A couple of thoughts to start.
I’m not sure if your puzzlement with certain responses to Jesus vs. the OT is with me specifically, but I do need to say I do agree that Jesus IS a fuller revelation – indeed, the object of the earlier revelation. However, they way I’ve heard it presented either in discussion or on the podcasts sounds like one needs to move on and leave behind the old revelation. Certainly, what is fulfilled in Christ needs to supercede what was imperfect, but the Law of the Lord is perfect. God’s nature is unchanging. So when one looks at the Old Testament, it is true that there are things that are done away with totally. But that doesn’t invalidate other things. The law is perfect and will not pass away – regardless of Christ appearing or not. What we find in Paul is that it was simply powerless to save. It could only convict. But it is no less forceful and applicable today – in its sphere. If it is used properly, it will always be good. But at the same time, if we want to perpetuate OT sacrifices, we certainly do negate Christ and are dead wrong. However, to reject all the OT as (at the very least) outdated, is like reading a book and forgetting the chapters that were necessary to get you to the middle and eventually to the end. All the early chapters point to the climax and the end – but we don’t ignore them. We simply move on and build ON them.
Which leads me to another point. The emergent idea of scripture as story robs it of its applicability. It becomes a matter of entertainment (i.e. a matter of enjoyment for our pleasure) rather than instruction. It is, indeed, an instruction booklet. Yes, you have to consider the whole book – not just part of it. And it does develop themes and show why certain things are the way they are and the way things will wind up. But it is not a story in the sense of a tale that needs to develop characters, plot etc…And while there is no inherent power in the pages, it is a key used to unlock understanding that one may believe in Christ.
What it comes down to is that if you (speaking generally) DON’T fulfill the OT (or it is not fulfilled in you), then how can you be said to be in Christ (or Christ in you). For if Christ fulfilled all and all is fulfilled in Him, then Him in you must show that fulfillment. At a basic level, that means a hatred for lying, adultery, murder etc… and generally a turning from sin. But since sin is revealed to go beyond just the external command, it must mean that the heart is changed and all the commands of God (whether OT or NT) are food to the heart of the true believer. To the un-believer (or non-believer), they are foolishness. It is a matter of fruit – not of knowing scripture.
And the Bible Code? I think you’re dead on. Frankly, I think the Code borders on occultism (interesting that “occult” comes from the Latin for hidden…)
Finally, how does one decide what a relationship with God looks like and, as a consequence, what a hindered relationship looks like?
February 11th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
I’ll only take the time to address your final question. Simply put, follow Christ. Jesus showed us what a relationship with the Father looks like.
February 11th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
“Jesus is God’s big ‘but'”
Lol, I nearly had tears.
What about the writings of James? If I remember correctly, he and Paul didn’t see eye-to-eye on the applicability of the law from the OT. Why accept Paul’s writings over James’?
February 11th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I think you might be confusing a couple of different issues, Sid. There was a conflict between Paul and Peter (not James) regarding separation of Jews from Gentiles, and Paul rebuked Peter with the end result that Peter accepted Paul’s correction and changed his approach.
In a separate issue, there has been some debate over the years as to whether or not Paul and James contradict each other on the issue of faith and works. If I remember correctly, Martin Luther really struggled with this and wanted to reject the book of James altogether. (As a tangent, I think that recognizing Martin Luther’s struggle with the idea of a certain canon that had already been formalized by the Church is interesting in light of people in his tradition [i.e., Protestants] who believe that the question of what books exist in the canon has been settled for 2000 years!)
Personally, to address the Paul/James controversy, I don’t see a disagreement there. It appears to be contradictory when you take some of Paul’s statements out of context. Paul says in Eph. 2:8-9 that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. James says that faith without works is dead. Ephesians 2:10 (if only people would continue reading past their proof texts!) says that we have been created for good works. So faith and works really do go hand in hand.
Anyway, does that address your question at all?
February 11th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Steve wrote:
I’ll only take the time to address your final question. Simply put, follow Christ. Jesus showed us what a relationship with the Father looks like.
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Absolutely! But how does one know they are not following “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)? One might well say “spiritual discernment”, but someone who doesn’t have an inclination to follow the real Jesus won’t accept that. While it may seem low or failing of the majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ, the fact remains that the written word – as has been left – serves to maintain focus. Someone who follows another spirit is internally deceived and NEEDS the external to point out the fundamental internal pride so that they are confronted with the truth. They will not listen to another internal leading while internally deceived. So if they see what foundational, unchanging, basic truth looks like, they will either be convicted and return or harden their hearts and resist. The scriptures will always be a good tool for that – both OT and NT.
I’m sure it may sound like I’m pontificating. I’m really not. They are my responses to your thoughts on the podcast and I’m not writing them in frustration or any such spirit (though I do sometimes feel like I can’t type fast enough in some responses…).
February 12th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Hey guys – thanks for tackling this subject. As always, you two have done a nice job of explaining some things that I’ve been feeling for awhile. Just as a bit of background note, I have been attending a Calvary Chapel church for nearly 10 years now. Steve, you absolutely nailed the whole “pride in the method” thought that I see pervading most CC churches and that is the best way to teach the Bible is exposition (or expositorily, if that’s a word). The underlying sentiment that I hear so often is that those who attend churches that teach topically or otherwise are in real danger of being led astray by false doctrines. Here lately, this attitude has become so sickening to me that I don’t even want to attend our church anymore. I’m really over it. Number one it seems to dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit and two it puts people in “camps” – those who are mature and those who aren’t, specifically based on the method of teaching. There seems to be more of an overt emphasis on being right doctrinally rather than simply loving God and loving your neighbor as the fulfillment of Christian living. But if I speak my thoughts, the general concensus is that the problem lies within me. Steve mentioned churches taking years to teach through books of the Bible. That absolutely happens in CC churches. And while, at one point in my life, this approach was refreshing, it’s now hindering to me. The only reason I’m still there is because I’m a member of the worship/sound ministry. I probably don’t play as important of a role as I think I do, but that commitment keeps me from walking away. Anyway, that was a large aside and probably more related to a different episode, but…
I appreciate what you said about the purpose of the OT being to point us to Jesus and that if we look to it for a rule or law to follow, then we are missing the point. However, there are some books in the OT that I think, on the surface, really have nothing to do with Jesus. For instance, Song of Solomon, on the surface is a love story between a man and his lover. Now we have extrapolated that in some way this shows the love of Christ for his church, but I’m not so sure that was the original intent of the author nor really the point of the story.
You guys have mentioned in several podcasts that Jesus made the statement of that old law could now be summed up in 1) love God and 2) love your neighbor. But we don’t seem to trust the sincerity of what that truly means and we don’t trust the power of the Holy Spirit to do just that. That if I love God and love my neighbor then I won’t commit murder, adultery, lie or give false testimony. When we really more on the scriptures than we do the Holy Spirit, then we are in real danger no matter how right we think we are. 2 Tim. 3:16 that all scripture (old testament scriptures at the time this was written) is God-breathed (created, not God himself) and is “useful” not “essential” for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness… Now I’m not suggesting that we discard Scripture, that would be foolish. But at some point we must rely more on the Holy Spirit than on the written word to be the one leads us into all truth.
My thoughts this morning…
February 12th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Sorry for all the grammatical errors and omitted words in my last post. I should proof read my statement before posting. However, the format of the response section makes it difficult to see our post as a whole. To me it’s easier to see my mistakes if I can see my entire post without scrolling.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
*puts away firewood… for now*
I like your view of the OT as part of a continuing narrative. I will continue to strongly endorse your podcast. 😉
February 21st, 2009 at 9:08 pm
You guys and Free Believers podcast talk about the same stuff. I found you guys from their forum.
I have to say some of this stuff is so freeing! Thank you.
So, we fulfill the whole Law (OT and NT) when we love God and love others? No need for “Do this. Don’t do that. Can’t you read the sign?”
October 2nd, 2011 at 12:23 pm
“Jesus is God’s big ‘but’” > I was working out with weights when you said this and I couldn’t finish the set because I was laughing so hard…too funny!!! I know this was recorded awhile ago…..recently, Wayne Jacobsen has posted an audio series called The Jesus Lens, also bringing us back to seeing Scripture as narrative – the story of redemption. To me, this leads to much more intimacy with God than Scripture as an instruction manual and proof texting as a way of navigating through life. Slowly making my way to catch up to the present…BtB podcasts, that is! : )