Atonement, Part 1: Penal Substitution
Posted by Steve - September 18, 2009
Beginning first with a response to a listener question regarding the deity of Jesus, Ray and Steve then move into the first segment in what will be a multi-part series. In this series, they take a look at different theories of the atonement.
While that may sound less than exciting for many people, Ray and Steve try to present it in a way that is interesting and informative. The different theories of the atonement (what does it mean that “Jesus died for our sins”?) have pros and cons, including the way that they cause us to view our Father.
In this first segment of the series, Ray and Steve look at the widely-held view among evangelicals, the Penal Substitution theory.
Beyond the Box is the podcast of Raborn Johnson and Steve Sensenig. We have been encouraging each other in the journey outside the bounds of institutional religion for several years now and share many of our candid thoughts and questions in our podcast.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Thanks so much for taking time to address my question.
About a year ago God set me free. Free from what you may wonder:)
Free to believe that just maybe I had been taught wrong or not taught enough ect..
I was going through some things that just wasn’t “fitting” into
the tradition of what I had always believed. This caused me to stumble and when I say stumble I mean I felt like I had fallen off a cliff!
Tradition and deception had me in it’s grips!
Through the last 10 years I have been searching for the Jesus who came and found me. Where did he go? What happened?
Oh, I know, church happened! I am not downing Christians or people who go to church. I am simply saying for ME it was a stumbling block. Why? Because I wasn’t following Christ, I was following the church. BIG DIFFERENCE:)
After my mother passed away a year ago, I was hurting pretty bad.
The loss of my mother was bitter sweet because of abuse in my family,however, I still loved and prayed much/dailey for her.
God showed me through this time that I couldn’t accept what He was saying to me because of what I had always believed. He reminded me of the parable of the new wine in old wine skins.
I told God to pour out the old I might also lose some of the good.
He spoke and said. “The good is there,however, it is tainted”.
Start over and let all the old traditional teaching go. Not just about what I knew about HIm but what my parents had spoke about me.
Everything must go!
I also with my husband left the building. We now are free to learn and walk with God the way HE always wanted:) He is here:)
I never would of dreamed that leaving the building would have made such a difference. My husband and I were very involved there.
However after I lost my mom I soon learned that they were more interested in building a program and building then me.
I say leaving the building because according to the book of Acts we are the church/body of Christ. Will we ever returned to traditional church? I doubt it,however, walls do not hinder God,people do!
Sandy…
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Great information in this episode. I think I’ll like this series. By the way, Ehrman is high on my reading list. Perhaps we can discuss when I finish “Misquoting Jesus”.
September 23rd, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Just finished listening to your podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time to discuss this. Thanks also to Sandy for her note above. I had a similar experience realizing that love was not present in the church establishment and neither was it in me for that matter. Letting go of fear and allowing myself to question most everything has brought much freedom to me.
Recently I found myself reading and thinking much on this topic of penal substitution. The great thing in all this is that I’m okay not having to have the “correct” doctrine. I don’t have to figure it all out. But the conversation is nonetheless very interesting. Thanks again, Ray and Steve.
September 24th, 2009 at 6:11 am
Thanks heaps for the podcast. I listened a couple of times as I found it so interesting. Never really heard any ‘good news’ in a penal substitution church, so glad I no longer attend. I didn’t even know til recently that there was other ways to view the cross and I am really looking forward to hearing the whole series. I too am learning from those who think different to me, I even read skeptics magazine from the library sometimes, it is fascinating.
I am letting go of all that I thought I had to hold dear in my thinking (like it really mattered to anyone), and it is so liberating. Thanks for the reply to Sandy it made loads of sense.
September 24th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Sandy,
Thanks for sharing some of your journey with us. Sounds like Papa is setting you free to follow Him! This freedom thing is a process, isn’t it?
Sid,
Glad you enjoyed this episode. Looking forward to hearing your take as we progress through this series.
Mary,
Great to have you on board!:) What have you been reading on this topic? Books, blogs, podcasts? It is a feeling of freedom to not have to have it all figured out, isn’t it? For me though, this question of what happened at the cross and resurrection is a very important hinge on which much of our view of God turns. Many doctrines/beliefs that people have end up painting a picture of a God that sounds nothing like Jesus.
Karen,
Thanks for listening! Glad you enjoyed it! For a long time I didn’t know that there were different ways to look at the work of Christ. I am so grateful that Father rescues us from some of our bad theology.
Like Paul said, right now we see through a glass darkly, but thank God that as we understand Him we are being transformed into His image!
September 26th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Enjoyed the first installment. Good stuff. Love the back and forth – that helps me think and sort things out. Looking forward to the other segments.
Wondering if the ‘truth’ is all of the above and not simply one of the perspectives? Shall see.
Overall, find much to applaud and much that reasonates. Took a little issue with one of your ‘Power of Words’ sections (can’t remember which one). It felt like you were laying out a doctrinal position at one point. Love to understand what you believe, love the passion for you to stake out – not too keen on being told specific doctrines are true except the bare essentials. I mean after all fellas – we have 14,000 Christian sects/denomenations in USA. Can we all be right?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
I have been following along for about six months and the the topics you cover are often part of our church discussion.
Thank you for what you do.
I had this come to me last week which woke me at 3:00am and seem to fit with the decussion.
God’s love has no limitations, as soon man atempts to define God’s love we start defining limitations.
God Bless.
September 30th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Dwight, thanks so much for the comment. I would love to know which part specifically of the “Power of Your Words” segments felt like we were telling people what to believe. I don’t think we can emphasize enough that people are under no obligation to agree with us. When we state something emphatically, it is because we believe it very strongly. But it’s very rare that we would insist someone agree with us in order for fellowship to take place. In other words, I can’t apologize for the things that I do believe strongly, and I may find it hard to understand how someone couldn’t agree on a particular point, but it doesn’t mean I’m closed to other ideas or that I can’t be convinced otherwise.
If there is anything we need to clarify about that, we’d be happy to! Thanks for listening, and I’m glad you enjoy the format and topics!
September 30th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Paul, great closing line there. I think you are absolutely correct that man’s definitions and explanations immediately begin to limit our understanding.
October 2nd, 2009 at 7:58 am
Hi Steve,
Sorry I should have included my ‘rant’. And by the way, I really enjoy your discussions. I like both your approach, your thinking, and your willingness to include us in your conversation. My comments are very minor.
It was on the subject of healing. I was raised in a Charismatic environment and believe in the power of God to heal. I do believe God bore our sins and sickness on the cross. So, don’t have an issue with the perspective.
My sense was that the discussion was reduced to the Bible says God heals. Believe Him. Be healed.
My experience is that I have prayed for lots of people to be healed over the course of my life — some with nagging issues, some life-threatening. I believe in God’s mercy and His power to heal. I have seen very little manifestation of healing on my journey.
Now I can’t point to why — my faith, the person I am praying for, God’s willingness, etc. — I don’t like any of those choices. I don’t know what is the answer but it isn’t a formula, it is birthed out of a relationship – I think.
By the way, I believe that my wife and I received a miraculous healing that allowed us to have children.
Thanks for listening.
October 5th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Dwight, while I understand your statement about formula vs. relationship, I do think that Jesus and the accounts of his healings give us a great deal of understanding as to how healings were manifested by him. I present this info not to propose a method of healing, but rather to offer some possible explanations and answers to these questions. These are, in my opinion, hypothesis and not definite answers.
– Jesus continually and consistently mentions the faith of the recipient when his response is recorded for us.
– The account tells us that in a region that had unbelief, Jesus did not do many miracles.
So, with that in mind, I presented my opinion on the podcast that we don’t receive what we don’t believe we receive.
A corollary can be found when James talks about asking for wisdom (in James 1). He says that when we ask for wisdom, we should not doubt. In fact, he says that a doubting petitioner is one who is double-minded and unstable. Pretty strong words.
My hunch is that the longer we don’t see healings manifest in our culture, the harder it is for us to believe (and we end up concocting all kinds of “excuses” such as saying that God doesn’t want to heal or that healings were only for the 1st century, etc.) and therefore, the harder it is to receive those things. It is my belief, based on the work and example of Jesus as well as other portions of the New Testament, that our Father does want us to be healthy and whole.
October 8th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. I’m a bit late getting back.
You said, “These are, in my opinion, hypothesis and not definite answers.
– Jesus continually and consistently mentions the faith of the recipient when his response is recorded for us.
I agree. He absolutely did
– The account tells us that in a region that had unbelief, Jesus did not do many miracles.
I agree. That is in scripture.
So, with that in mind, I presented my opinion on the podcast that we don’t receive what we don’t believe we receive.
And so here is my issue with your statements – 1) Jesus healed people – true; 2) Jesus recognized faith in those He healed – also true; and 3) Jesus didn’t heal in a region because of their unbelief – also true.
The way you have framed the argument is that we just need to believe Him or believe harder or something like that. We know it’s not His problem from a power standpoint. We also believe He is willing. Therefore, either I as the person praying or I as the person receiving – lacks faith or belief.
All I can say is that I have read the same passages you quoted. And I have believed to the best of my ability the truth of those passages. And I have prayed for people with fervor. And I have fasted and prayed for people to be healed. And I have seen healings take place – as mentioned, my wife and I believe we were miraculously healed.
But I have seen far more not get healed; far more remain sick or desparate or (fill in the blank). Now we can go to the place of saying that I lacked faith or the person I was praying for lacked faith. But I don’t think that’s helpful.
I gave it everything I could. The person needed healing may have cried ‘Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief.’ I just don’t think it is about believing the Word, or praying harder, or trusting Jesus. I’m not sure what is missing, if anything is.
We live in a world where bad stuff goes on. People get sick, lose jobs, get flat tires, get divorced, and struggle with their kids. Others are seemingly healthy, wealthy, and wise. All I can say is the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
What I do believe is God is crazy about us and hates the condition of His creation. He hates sin and all that our independence from Him has wrought. He longs to re-establish that vital connection that was shared in the garden. And one day, no more tears, or suffering and we will know as we are known. But not today.
So today I wrestle with mixture. Does that make sense? I didn’t mean to challenge your conviction. I just don’t find the formula – God heals + you believe + He is willing = healing to be too helpful.
Thanks for listening.
A corollary can be found when James talks about asking for wisdom (in James 1). He says that when we ask for wisdom, we should not doubt. In fact, he says that a doubting petitioner is one who is double-minded and unstable. Pretty strong words.
My hunch is that the longer we don’t see healings manifest in our culture, the harder it is for us to believe (and we end up concocting all kinds of “excuses” such as saying that God doesn’t want to heal or that healings were only for the 1st century, etc.) and therefore, the harder it is to receive those things. It is my belief, based on the work and example of Jesus as well as other portions of the New Testament, that our Father does want us to be healthy and whole.
October 17th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Dwight ,
The topic of healing has been one of the charismatic doctrines that have haunted me for the last 10-15 years.
First let me say that I attend a charismatic congregation but would classify myself as Post-Charismatic [http://www.amazon.com/Post-charismatic-Where-Have-Come-Going/dp/1842913506].
That said, I have come to believe with a strong conviction that even though God can/does heal today and we can/should expect it:
1) “By his stripe we are/were healed” has nothing to do with physical healing and has everything to do with restoration/ reconciliation. I have studied Isaiah – marked every point where it mentions health, healing, sickness, etc. and have come to see what the prophet was talking about. [I encourage you to do this study. It was very interesting.]
2) Healing is not part of the atonement. ‘God bore our sins and sickness on the cross’. In my mind, this can’t be! For in 1 John, the author says that “Jesus is faithful and just to forgive our sins”. If I come to God with all the faith that I have but am not healed, how can I trust that if I come to God in faith for forgiveness that I will be forgiven? Jesus healed, in part, to prove that he could forgive. He gave physical proof[healing] for an abstract reality[forgiveness].
3) Most of Jesus’ healings were to be a sign. I use to think that we should expect the same or greater miraculous healings as we see with Jesus. Today I don’t think so.
4) We need to tie healing, etc, not with Jesus’ atonement/death Isaiah 53:
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
but with his life Isaiah 61:
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
Anyway, for what it was worth, this is my view.
October 25th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Thanks Barry. I have found the Christus Victor discussion to be a celebration about the life of Christ as well. I appreciate what you wrote.
My primary reason for posting the healing thread was to caution us against reducing the works of God to a formula. God + our belief + need + faith = healing. If it were a formula, someone would empty out the hospitals.
We don’t. And I do not think it is God’s lack.
The atonement installments are very helpful. And it is good to challenge our automatic thinking.