My primary reason for posting the healing thread was to caution us against reducing the works of God to a formula. God + our belief + need + faith = healing. If it were a formula, someone would empty out the hospitals.

We don’t. And I do not think it is God’s lack.

The atonement installments are very helpful. And it is good to challenge our automatic thinking.

The topic of healing has been one of the charismatic doctrines that have haunted me for the last 10-15 years.

First let me say that I attend a charismatic congregation but would classify myself as Post-Charismatic [http://www.amazon.com/Post-charismatic-Where-Have-Come-Going/dp/1842913506].

That said, I have come to believe with a strong conviction that even though God can/does heal today and we can/should expect it:

1) “By his stripe we are/were healed” has nothing to do with physical healing and has everything to do with restoration/ reconciliation. I have studied Isaiah – marked every point where it mentions health, healing, sickness, etc. and have come to see what the prophet was talking about. [I encourage you to do this study. It was very interesting.]

2) Healing is not part of the atonement. ‘God bore our sins and sickness on the cross’. In my mind, this can’t be! For in 1 John, the author says that “Jesus is faithful and just to forgive our sins”. If I come to God with all the faith that I have but am not healed, how can I trust that if I come to God in faith for forgiveness that I will be forgiven? Jesus healed, in part, to prove that he could forgive. He gave physical proof[healing] for an abstract reality[forgiveness].

3) Most of Jesus’ healings were to be a sign. I use to think that we should expect the same or greater miraculous healings as we see with Jesus. Today I don’t think so.

4) We need to tie healing, etc, not with Jesus’ atonement/death Isaiah 53:
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
but with his life Isaiah 61:
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

Anyway, for what it was worth, this is my view.

Thanks for the reply. I’m a bit late getting back.

You said, “These are, in my opinion, hypothesis and not definite answers.

– Jesus continually and consistently mentions the faith of the recipient when his response is recorded for us.

I agree. He absolutely did

– The account tells us that in a region that had unbelief, Jesus did not do many miracles.

I agree. That is in scripture.

So, with that in mind, I presented my opinion on the podcast that we don’t receive what we don’t believe we receive.

And so here is my issue with your statements – 1) Jesus healed people – true; 2) Jesus recognized faith in those He healed – also true; and 3) Jesus didn’t heal in a region because of their unbelief – also true.

The way you have framed the argument is that we just need to believe Him or believe harder or something like that. We know it’s not His problem from a power standpoint. We also believe He is willing. Therefore, either I as the person praying or I as the person receiving – lacks faith or belief.

All I can say is that I have read the same passages you quoted. And I have believed to the best of my ability the truth of those passages. And I have prayed for people with fervor. And I have fasted and prayed for people to be healed. And I have seen healings take place – as mentioned, my wife and I believe we were miraculously healed.

But I have seen far more not get healed; far more remain sick or desparate or (fill in the blank). Now we can go to the place of saying that I lacked faith or the person I was praying for lacked faith. But I don’t think that’s helpful.

I gave it everything I could. The person needed healing may have cried ‘Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief.’ I just don’t think it is about believing the Word, or praying harder, or trusting Jesus. I’m not sure what is missing, if anything is.

We live in a world where bad stuff goes on. People get sick, lose jobs, get flat tires, get divorced, and struggle with their kids. Others are seemingly healthy, wealthy, and wise. All I can say is the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.

What I do believe is God is crazy about us and hates the condition of His creation. He hates sin and all that our independence from Him has wrought. He longs to re-establish that vital connection that was shared in the garden. And one day, no more tears, or suffering and we will know as we are known. But not today.

So today I wrestle with mixture. Does that make sense? I didn’t mean to challenge your conviction. I just don’t find the formula – God heals + you believe + He is willing = healing to be too helpful.

Thanks for listening.

A corollary can be found when James talks about asking for wisdom (in James 1). He says that when we ask for wisdom, we should not doubt. In fact, he says that a doubting petitioner is one who is double-minded and unstable. Pretty strong words.

My hunch is that the longer we don’t see healings manifest in our culture, the harder it is for us to believe (and we end up concocting all kinds of “excuses” such as saying that God doesn’t want to heal or that healings were only for the 1st century, etc.) and therefore, the harder it is to receive those things. It is my belief, based on the work and example of Jesus as well as other portions of the New Testament, that our Father does want us to be healthy and whole.

– Jesus continually and consistently mentions the faith of the recipient when his response is recorded for us.
– The account tells us that in a region that had unbelief, Jesus did not do many miracles.

So, with that in mind, I presented my opinion on the podcast that we don’t receive what we don’t believe we receive.

A corollary can be found when James talks about asking for wisdom (in James 1). He says that when we ask for wisdom, we should not doubt. In fact, he says that a doubting petitioner is one who is double-minded and unstable. Pretty strong words.

My hunch is that the longer we don’t see healings manifest in our culture, the harder it is for us to believe (and we end up concocting all kinds of “excuses” such as saying that God doesn’t want to heal or that healings were only for the 1st century, etc.) and therefore, the harder it is to receive those things. It is my belief, based on the work and example of Jesus as well as other portions of the New Testament, that our Father does want us to be healthy and whole.

Sorry I should have included my ‘rant’. And by the way, I really enjoy your discussions. I like both your approach, your thinking, and your willingness to include us in your conversation. My comments are very minor.

It was on the subject of healing. I was raised in a Charismatic environment and believe in the power of God to heal. I do believe God bore our sins and sickness on the cross. So, don’t have an issue with the perspective.

My sense was that the discussion was reduced to the Bible says God heals. Believe Him. Be healed.

My experience is that I have prayed for lots of people to be healed over the course of my life — some with nagging issues, some life-threatening. I believe in God’s mercy and His power to heal. I have seen very little manifestation of healing on my journey.

Now I can’t point to why — my faith, the person I am praying for, God’s willingness, etc. — I don’t like any of those choices. I don’t know what is the answer but it isn’t a formula, it is birthed out of a relationship – I think.

By the way, I believe that my wife and I received a miraculous healing that allowed us to have children.

Thanks for listening.

If there is anything we need to clarify about that, we’d be happy to! Thanks for listening, and I’m glad you enjoy the format and topics!

Thank you for what you do.

I had this come to me last week which woke me at 3:00am and seem to fit with the decussion.

God’s love has no limitations, as soon man atempts to define God’s love we start defining limitations.

God Bless.

Wondering if the ‘truth’ is all of the above and not simply one of the perspectives? Shall see.

Overall, find much to applaud and much that reasonates. Took a little issue with one of your ‘Power of Words’ sections (can’t remember which one). It felt like you were laying out a doctrinal position at one point. Love to understand what you believe, love the passion for you to stake out – not too keen on being told specific doctrines are true except the bare essentials. I mean after all fellas – we have 14,000 Christian sects/denomenations in USA. Can we all be right?

Sid,
Glad you enjoyed this episode. Looking forward to hearing your take as we progress through this series.

Mary,
Great to have you on board!:) What have you been reading on this topic? Books, blogs, podcasts? It is a feeling of freedom to not have to have it all figured out, isn’t it? For me though, this question of what happened at the cross and resurrection is a very important hinge on which much of our view of God turns. Many doctrines/beliefs that people have end up painting a picture of a God that sounds nothing like Jesus.

Karen,
Thanks for listening! Glad you enjoyed it! For a long time I didn’t know that there were different ways to look at the work of Christ. I am so grateful that Father rescues us from some of our bad theology.
Like Paul said, right now we see through a glass darkly, but thank God that as we understand Him we are being transformed into His image!