Judgment: The Forbidden Fruit
Jan.19, 2010 in
Podcast Episodes
Recent events in Haiti have resulted in a huge outpouring of support, donations, volunteers, etc. to help the needy country. However, as often happens with any major tragedy of the type suffered in Haiti, there are those who want to voice their negative opinions over the cause of such tragedy.
In the first BtB episode of 2010, Ray and Steve go head-to-head with the notion that God was judging the people of Haiti. They show some of the incredible fallacies in this line of thinking, and even tie it in to the original sin recorded in scripture–eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
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January 22nd, 2010 at 11:45 am
Have you guys watched the movie “Dogma”? It may not be your cup of tea entertainment wise, but from a teaching perspective you should view it once. The premise of the movie is exactly what you are talking about here in this most excellent episode. That the “rules/law” of the church override Gods power. Actually they call it a loop hole, but God has to follow it. Anyway they focus on the catholic set of rules and there are some interesting comical pokes at it.
But the coolest thing I took away from the movie is belief starts wars. I you believe you stand, if you stand you fight. However an idea, an idea can grow, evolve, and change as needed. This is where I live, and I think to some extent you guys do to. You don’t seem to hold to “belief” so much as you guys have had ideas and live in them.
Great explanation with the traffic light story. That is the best way I have ever heard it.
Se all good comments this week.
P.S. I love the image of the buddy christ – google it if you don’t know
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Hello Steve and Raborn,
As much as I like that you focus on the positive, there are some serious questions that the negative creates. Here’s one:
If God feels so bad about the people caught in that earthquake, then whey the flowery language didn’t he do anything to prevent it?!?
If you’re taking the Bible as true, then God has shown his character…
…to everyone but Noah’s family when he drowned them
…to the residence of Sodom and Gomorrah when he burned them
…to the residence of Egypt with ten plagues
…to the Amalekites
…to the Aradites
…to the Bashanites
…to the Midianite
…to the residence of Jericho
…to the Amorites
…and to so many more.
It seems that there’s plenty of justification in the Bible for believing God sent Haiti that earthquake. At the very least, can you see how some other believer could make that conclusion?
Granted, you did mention that you addressed these Old Testament nasties in a previous episode. I’d be interested in a link to it. Thanks.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Psst hey… I think you have a spammer here. I mean comon a name like sid waffle can’t be real. Maybe if you pray hard enough the sidbot will go away….
Actually I am watching this like a bowling match. Sid sent his ball down… what will the pins do to respond?
January 22nd, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Big C, don’t feed the troll 😉 hehe
Just kidding, Sid.
Seriously, I’m not entirely sure which episode(s) have contained information about our view of the Old Testament, but here’s the basic gist of my thoughts on it (speaking only for myself and not Ray because I don’t want to put words in his mouth):
The New Testament (specifically the opening to the book of Hebrews, but also many of the claims of Jesus, etc.) makes it quite clear that Jesus is a revelation of the Father’s heart. Who Jesus is, what he acted like, etc. is all indicative of the Father.
So, what that says to me is that if I want to know what God is like, I look at Jesus. God may be spirit, but we have an incarnate revelation of that spirit in human form, namely Jesus.
(I realize you don’t believe any of the preceding, Sid, but it does serve as the foundation of my position, so I’m sharing it in explanation of my view.)
Anything, then, that is different than what I see in Jesus is either misunderstood, misinterpreted, or flat out incorrect. Is it possible that the writers of the Old Testament misunderstood God? Of course, it must be possible, else there would have been no reason for any further revelation.
So, in short, the “violent God” that we see in the Old Testament stands in stark contrast to the God revealed in Jesus. So I feel that the fault must be with our understanding of the God of the Old Testament, or the understanding of those who wrote about him.
That’s where I’m at so far on it. No strong conclusions, but strong opinions about the premises so far 😉
January 23rd, 2010 at 2:13 am
Sid,
I “amen” what Steve said.
You said:
If God feels so bad about the people caught in that earthquake, then whey the flowery language didn’t he do anything to prevent it?!?
This is something that we talked about in the episode “Is God All-Powerful?” The comments section is one of the most active ones I think we have ever had!
At the very least, can you see how some other believer could make that conclusion?
Yes. I think that I actually said as much in the episode, but then went on to say why I believed it was an incorrect conclusion.
Here is just an additional thought:
Science has experienced some problems trying to unite seemingly opposite forces in an explanation of how the universe works. Over time some of these seemingly polar opposite forces have been able to be reconciled in new theories which explain their coexistence. However, there is still an ongoing quest for the “holy grail” of science, a “theory of everything”, that is a theory which would be able to account for and combine all of the laws in the universe in a way which would harmonize apparently contradictory data and forces. The problem is that scientists can’t quite figure out how to explain a universe where both the laws of gravity and electro-magnetism can coexist since these seem to be completely opposed to each other. The laws of the macro world (gravity) are very hard to reconcile with those of the subatomic world. The one seems very predictable while the other seems completely random. Einstein spent much of his life in a failed attempt to produce a “theory of everything.”
One attempt at a “theory of everything” (string theory) has turned our understanding of the universe on it’s ear and requires us to believe that the universe consists of at least 11 dimensions. This seems to contradict everything that we experience on a daily basis. No one knows if we are on the brink of discovering a unified “theory of everything”, but if so it will require us to rethink everything that we have previously posited about the universe.
Could it be that faith is like this as well? Is there a “theory of everything” within theology which would serve to explain seeming contradictions in our understandings of the character of God? Hmm. I don’t know. But I choose to look to Jesus to reveal to me who God is. Anything that contradicts this picture of God is cast aside either permanently or temporarily, and I trust that someday I will no longer see through a glass darkly. Hope this helps 🙂
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:49 am
This is the first time I have responded to any of your podcasts. I have been listening for a few months now and while a don’t agree with a lot of what you say I do enjoy the podcast and some of the ideas you bring to the table. I really just wanted to comment on your reference to the blog post by John Piper and the tornado in his home town. I went and read the blog post that you referenced and did not see that he was calling that tornado God’s judgement on the Lutherans. I am not Pipers defender, but having been helped greatly by his books I just wanted to ad my voice to that comment. I will put the link to this post. http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1965_The_Tornado_the_Lutherans_and_Homosexuality/ Read it and let me know what you think.
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Hi guys, first time visitor from a little Island off the west of Canada. Love the podcast…now a subscriber. I’ll be back to join the conversation. Peace…Ron Cole.
January 23rd, 2010 at 3:38 pm
JJ:
Thanks for listening! I appreciate your tone and the fact that you still listen even in the midst of disagreeing with many of our thoughts. I truly appreciate and admire that.
The part of John Piper’s statement that I was really wanting to hone in on was this:
Conclusion: The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin.
While this statement does not promote the idea of God’s judgement on the ELCA per se, the idea of a warning does seem to carry with it the concept of impending judgement does it not? Also the idea that Mr. Piper can discern a warning from God in one of hundreds of tornadoes in the United States seems to me to be problematic. Are all natural disasters warnings? I think that a better word would be “reminder”. Maybe this is what Mr. Piper was getting at anyway, but if so, I just wish he would have said so.
You might want to check out Greg Boyd’s response
to John Piper’s blog post for another take on it.
Thanks for taking the time to join the dialog. Your thoughts are welcome here any time. 🙂
January 23rd, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Ron:
Welcome! Thanks for stopping by. I look forward to hearing your input on the conversations. 🙂
October 28th, 2011 at 7:58 am
In response to the questions about how we see “the God of the OT” portrayed … the book, Is God A Moral Monster, by Paul Copan, may be helpful. : )
October 29th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
Judy,
Thanks for the suggestion. I have seen this book at the store I work at and have wondered how he dealt with this. Have you read this book? Does Paul Copan believe that all of the things attributed to God in the Old Testament (ie. destruction of the Canaanites) were actually God’s doing?
October 30th, 2011 at 6:15 am
Raborn, it’s been awhile since I read the book, but I think the response to your question is “No.” Here are a few things that I jotted down:
‘The military texts in the OT are unique and non-repeatable, not normative and permanent-ongoing – not an intrinsic pattern (as in Islamic jihad)…We must distinguish between the essence of a religion and tragic abuses by its practitioners.”
‘Abraham lies about Sarah; Moses murders an Egyptian; David power-rapes Bathsheba –> “Is” doesn’t mean “ought;” the way biblical characters happen-to-act isn’t necessarily an endorsement of their behavior. 1 Cor. 10 refers to the “ungrateful mutinous” children of Israel who are full of stubbornness and treachery. They end up serving as negative examples and we should avoid imitating them. We can reject the notion that “if it’s in the Bible, it must have God’s seal of approval.” On closer inspection, the hero status of Abraham, Moses, and David (echoed in the NT) is rooted not in their moral perfection but in their uncompromising dedication to the cause of Yahweh and their rugged trust in the promises of God rather than lapsing into the idolatry of many of their contempories.’
If I’m not mistaken, it seems to me like Paul Copan is adhering to the idea of the progressive revelation of God in Scripture. Wayne Jacobsen also points this out in his recent {The Jesus Lens} series.
Judy
Chapel Hill, NC
A little color commentary here: I work in Academic Advising at UNC-CH, in the bldg on campus that is right beside where Dr. Bart E. resides! ; )