An Open Approach to Prayer, Sovereignty, & the Problem of Evil
Nov.17, 2010 in
Podcast Episodes
Prompted by listener feedback and interaction, Steve and Ray respond to and continue the ongoing conversation about Open Theism and it’s ramifications for prayer, the sovereignty of God, and the problem of evil. In this part 1 of ?? episodes, Steve and Ray travel a few rabbit trails, interact with listener comments, and once again focus on Jesus as the self-expression of God. Let’s keep the conversation going!
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November 18th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Nice job, guys, can’t wait to hear part two. Jotted down a few notes while I listened at work today, but I walked out without them.
BTW, my dad was from NC and it is so nice hearing my name said with that accent.
November 19th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Hey guys! Thanks for addressing my comment.
Congratulations on 14 years of marriage, Raborn! I hope you have many more. We’re at 8 years and we’re confident we will make it to 14 and beyond. 🙂
I’m so glad you guys can find ideas you agree with even when they come from people with very different opinions. Too many of these discussions dissolve into partisanship. And even when you disagree, you have a way of using both respect and humor to make it downright pleasant.
Anyway, Steve, you are correct – the problem of evil does predate Jesus. It’s also not unique to Christianity. I wrote a series of posts on the problem of evil awhile back and started each with this quote:
“Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus (341 – 270 BCE)
Job is an interesting book with many ways to interpret it. There is even some controversy surrounding the last chapter (the one where God restores all of Job’s worldly things). Many Biblical scholars believe that it’s not original to the story. I’ll have to read it soon.
Just before the 30 minute mark, you brought up the old question, “Can God create a boulder so large that he cannot move it?” This brought back a nice memory from my childhood. I was expressing some of my first attempts at philosophy and theology to my father and he was asking me questions about the things I was saying. He asked me that classic question. I responded “It depended on whether he wanted to or not.” In other words, I invoked the free will of God as a solution to the apparent paradox. If I understand your comments from this episode correctly, that’s pretty much how you answer the question as well.
That’s enough comment for now. Thanks for the discussion!
November 19th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Really enjoyed the discussion. The mention of complexity really got me thinking. It’s so obvious why it’s often difficult to get an answer to “why?”. So many millions of people in the world making good and evil choices that affect other people, and the natural world, both of which in turn affect more people’s lives. As you say, the ripples are endless. Still, I’m thankful that we can pray and God does intervene quite miraculously sometimes. It should not be a case of “what will be will be” for the Christian. We’re not fatalists.
November 19th, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Paula,
Glad to know I give you a piece of home 🙂
Sid,
Thanks for that! It’s great to have someone who will stick by you through thick and thin isn’t it! Sid, have appreciated your interaction with us over the last ??year or two??. It is a pleasure to dialog with you.
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Unfortunately, this is where it seems like most of my brethren are. Something bad happens and their “words of comfort” are something about how we “just have to trust that everything comes to us through the hands of a loving father”. Cancer doesn’t sound very loving to me. A tragic accident doesn’t endear me to my Father. And as far as God using some horrific event to “teach me a lesson”, why is it that no one can ever explain exactly what it is I am supposed to learn?!? (Geesh!)
As to “invoking the free will of God”, I would add one caveat. I would say that it seems to me that God did excercise His free will in creating the kind of world in which we live, but His self-imposed limitations are due to the nature of this kind of world in which love is possible (which necessitates an element of risk as well). Just as by definition God would not (or could not) create a round triangle, He would not (or could not) force a relationship of love upon the ones whom He created in His image. Forced love is as contradictory as a married batchelor or a round triangle. 🙂
Judy,
I’m thankful that we can pray and God does intervene quite miraculously sometimes.
Amen! I am still trying to figure out the ins and outs of this, but I believe it is true! I don’t understand why some prayers are answered in a miraculous way while others seem to go unanswered at all, but I have come to the conclusion that this has nothing to do with God being capricious or moody. Rather, I believe that Father intervenes every chance He gets. It’s just that those chances are limited by human decision, complexity and (paradoxically enough) prayerlessness. If we really are the “hands and feet of Christ”, does that then mean that God has bound His activity in this world to ours? Hmmm.
It should not be a case of “what will be will be” for the Christian. We’re not fatalists.
Quite the opposite. If we believe in human free will, then it really, really matters what we do. With each decision we are either helping to establish the Kingdom of God or the fallen world system. This is great responsibility, but also great power (man I’m starting to sound like Spiderman’s uncle) 🙂
November 20th, 2010 at 2:22 am
I remember going through an intense season with the idea that God needs our permission or request to do things. I have also cycled though needing faith, asking God first if it is in his will to pray for something, and a lot of other ideas. See, i think this is where it all falls apart; we keep trying to find rules and God keeps insisting on a relationship that transcends the rules we make up.
Yo mentioned about the curtain in the temple being torn. Somehow that has always gone straight to my heart, that we now have direct access.
So, I have been thinking some more about the idea of open theology compared to the idea of the Father of lights in whom there is no turning. And what I am thinking, at least for right now, is that He is unchanging in the nature of who he is, his love for us, and his desire to give us good gifts. That does not mean that he can’t look at what we have changed, based on our free will, and decide to do something different.
So why doesn’t he always give us what we ask for. Well, it is complex, and we don’t have his point of view. Maybe there are other consequences that we can’t see. Maybe it is the activity of evil in this fallen world. I don’t know. But I think that what I needed to get out of this current conversation at this time is that my prayers are not useless. I had been feeling a little lost in this area lately.
November 1st, 2011 at 5:55 am
I used to get so frustrated in both “praying for healing” and “praying for other’s salvation.” I spent five years in China and both of these were tested to the max. Perhaps that has something to do with math! ; ) One time, I was out on a walk and ran into this woman who had a huge goiter on her neck. I waved and kept going, but the thought of her stuck with me and I ask the Father for another oppty to run into her again so I could “pray for her healing.” That oppty did come, and in my very limited ‘Chinglish,’ I prayed. There was no instantaneous manifestation of healing (i.e. the goiter shrinking). I had expectations of such, and therefore was about to go away frustrated (once again), but she had this huge grin on her face as she was saying to me how touched she was that I, a foreigner in her neck-of-the-woods, would bother enough to care to stop and pray for her. For her, that seemed “enough.” That helped (me) some, but I still wanted to see her goiter go away!
Years later, I re-read George Ladd’s Gospel of the Kingdom, which helped me tremendously in this area…to live in such a way and have the understanding that the K of G is now here in part and later will be ushered in in it’s fullness. Thus, sometimes when we pray, we will see supernatural manifestations, and at other times not. The point is to learn to trust, to not give up, and to embrace “living in tension,” (e.g. “living in the tension of uncertainty,” “living in the tension of the ‘the here and the not yet,'” etc.). I’m learning to relax more, enter in to a partnership with him, to actively listen and engage (or not), to leave the “results” up to him, …. and to keep on questioning and wrestling with thoughts and ideas along the way. I’m ever learning how to navigate AND how to rest and enJOY … this journey I am on.
November 1st, 2011 at 11:00 pm
Judy,
Thanks for your thoughts. Brad Jersak and I just did a podcast a couple of weeks ago about something he has dubbed as “A Theology of Consent”. We talked about many of the things that you mention in your comments. Divine/Human partnership, resting in God, leaving the results to Him. I think you will enjoy it.
February 15th, 2013 at 7:40 am
Hi Guys, I’ve been listening to your recent podcasts and mostly the questions I have been asking God, have been answered in your podcasts, the theology of consent being one such example 🙂
Ive recently been looking at open theism, and it seems that the classic view that God predetermines everything, leaves us wondering what is the point of prayer. I ask the same question, if open theism is correct, then what is the point of praying for loved ones to respond to the Love of God in this life. I’m on the same page as you regarding thoughts of Hell, ultimate reconciliation etc, but I believe that knowing God in this life, accepting his love and loving him in return, is a much more happier and fulfiing life, than going through life in ignorance of his love…. But with free will etc is there any point in praying for others ”salvation’ or having faith that this will happen?