Embracing an Open Future
Nov.03, 2010 in
Podcast Episodes
For many conservative Christians, the notion of a God who might actually leave some details of the future up to us is a frightening prospect. Wouldn’t this logically mean that God is not in control? Couldn’t a God who doesn’t know the future possibly be defeated?
In this episode, Ray and Steve pick up on a months-old idea submission from Chip who asked about open theology. Thinking out loud about the concept, they discuss questions related to a God who not only may not dictate every detail of the future, but who actually might change his mind based on the decisions and actions of humans.
It’s vintage BtB, but with a new intro/outro! 🙂
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 1:14:15 — 68.0MB) | Embed
November 4th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
Just recently found this podcast. This episode just blew my mind, which is not easy to do. I wish I could sit and talk to you guys for, I don’t know, hours. The implications are far reaching to me, and I need to think about this. I hope to see some other comments, I realize I just don’t have words.
November 4th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
Paula, welcome! You are welcome to comment at any time, and to join the dialog. We definitely prefer dialog, even though the nature of our recordings gives the impression that we are doing all the talking.
November 4th, 2010 at 11:47 pm
Let me think. I have seen God as outside of time, based on the whole alpha and omega thing, which you didn’t mention. But then I have a hard time reconciling that with the personal God who I have seen respond to prayers, and if He is outside and in control, then either we don’t have free will or each decision creates and alternate reality. See, I have been struggling with this issue.
So, this concept of God more restrained by time, and more changeable. Ok, well that seems more consistent with who I know, but still, feel like I’m getting some core ideas shaken up. Not a bad thing, usually when I hear these different podcasts, it all things I’ve noticed or thought about. But this, um, not sure where or how it fits.
November 5th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Hi Paula,
Welcome! I am glad you want to dialog about this. You bring up a good point about God being the Alpha & Omega. Not exactly sure how to answer that, but I think that the point of how He is describing Himself is that He is the originator and author of creation and that eventually His Kingdom will come and His will will be done in it.
I see Jesus as THE image and revelation of who God is (Hebrews 1:1-3) and therefore He is the filter through which I view God. I believe that the incarnation of Jesus shows us how God wants to interact with us. Instead of our attempting to arrive at some unachieveable spiritual plane or level (this is religion in a nutshell), in Jesus God chooses to condescend (Philippians 2) to join us in our experience and limitations (the nature of relationship). It’s not that God couldn’t unilaterally determine what will or will not be, He just doesn’t desire it. Instead, He wants to share His love with us and embrace us into Himself. By definition love has to be chosen and cannot be forced, so He uses persuasion rather than coercion to bring us into relationship. What do you think Paula?
November 5th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Hey, Steve, thanks for the thougts. Still thinking….
Part of what is going through my mind (and I’m not really good about pulling up precise citations) is the scriptures like “I and the father are one” and “when you see me you have seen the Father.” But here is the thing, God in the person of Jesus chose to experience our limitations. That does not mean that God the Father was also limited or that Jesus remained limited – He did overcome death.
So, if God is all the omnis, then I have a hard time as seeing him as limited to the structure of time. But I also have a hard time thinking about God who knows all the outcomes, which may or may not be the same idea as predestination. I have seen God answer prayer; therefor changing the outcomes, or changing his mind. And I have no doubt about his personal, individual love.
What I have been struggling with is prayer. Given God’s love why doesn’t he just take care of of stuff without me having to be specific? I think sometimes what prayer is about is the conversation helps me clarify what I really think and feel about something.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m a big time talker to God. So here I am in downtown Southern California, and I’m always praying (and getting help, mind you) about merging onto crowded freeways and getting impossible parking spaces. Sometimes the other people in the car with me are blown away by the paths that clear. But the big stuff, like my son getting laid off and my daily physical pain, it just seems unrelenting sometimes and I don’t understand. I trust, but I get frustrated. So will God act or wont he, is there a plan behind the suffering, or is he just not listening or just not care. None of those answers work for me.
November 9th, 2010 at 10:53 am
Hello Steve and Ray,
Thanks for another great episode. And I’m not just saying that because you complimented my chess prowess ;). It’s one of those times when, as I listen to the discussion, I would think of a point or a question. Then, in the next couple of minutes, you two would make a very similar point or answer the question. For example, one of the last things I thought as I listened was, “Hmm, I wonder what the implications of open theology are for the problem of evil?” I really hope you do an episode on that topic. I would love it.
Overall, I like open theology. It’s more consistent with the concept of free will and the changing character of God in the Bible. It dodges some logical inconsistencies of being all-knowing yet having desires. And finally, it helps explain God’s apparent low success rate at winning converts. It makes more sense than the closed theology under which I was raised.
Seriously, the absolute sovereignty of closed theology sounded more like a cosmological dictatorship. It’s like the ultimate North Korea with an all-powerful Kim Jung il running it all. The Orwellian nightmare is complete with intense surveillance, thought-crime laws, and compulsory worship – all with torture and/or death as punishment for even minor infractions.
November 9th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Sid, thanks for the feedback. I’m actually very sympathetic to your comment, more so than I sometimes am. It is nice to be interacting with you again.
steve 🙂
November 10th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Paula,
I so appreciate your thoughts! I want to try and address some of these issues in our next podcast episode which we are going to try to record soon. If you have some other thoughts that you would like to share to help form this episode please feel free to share them. I really appreciate your sticking with us in talking this out. I believe that this is important stuff 🙂
November 12th, 2010 at 8:14 am
I’ve come to many of the same conclusions you have Ray and Steve but been afraid to vocalise them amongst some Christians. What a relief to hear a couple of guys of like mind! Must listen to this podcast again though as I think about the points raised by Paula.
November 12th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
I’ve been super busy with the day to day lately, so I still haven’t put all my thoughts together. Interested to hear what you say next, though:)
November 14th, 2010 at 2:58 am
I just remembered, there was one other thought I had at work the other day. The thought of a God who’s mind can be changed can be really rather frightening. As people, we seem to want to manipulate and control and make some sense of all the uncertainty of life. At times the idea of an unchanging God and a fixed,planned future can be comforting. If God could just be randomly talked into stuff if you just asked enough while holding your mind in the right position (positive thinking, faith, whatever)then what hope could there be for any security.
So the idea of an open theology is only workable in view of God who truly is love, who truly “gets” our point of view, and who truly is all the omnis so that if plans are changed those changes are not capricious or harmful.
November 14th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Paula, I appreciate your continued interaction and thoughts on this topic. We have been delayed in recording our follow-up episode for several reasons, but you’re giving us lots to talk about (as have others in this thread).
I think you have hit on something really good here, and I want to express my agreement. We have to start with what we know of the character of God and build on that. If we know that our Father loves us, cares for us, provides for us, and delights in us (all things that Jesus revealed to us about the Father), we can rest in that while we examine the other stuff about him.
steve 🙂
November 14th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
I’ve been wondering if my story would add anything or just muddy the waters. Here goes.
Some years ago, having been a single adult for many years, I received a proposal of marriage, along with much romancing/gifts of flowers etc., from a kind man in the church (one of the very few middle aged single Christian men I had met in the UK church). The temptation to accept his proposal was overwhelming even though I didn’t love him. I was mentally exhausted from years of trying to earn a living on minimum wage and even hold down a job (I have ADHD) and even without the years of unfulfilled yearning for love and intimacy, I also longed for a partner who could take up some of the financial slack in life. In this state, I got down on my knees and fervently prayed to God for a man to come into my life NOW. I don’t know exactly what wording I used to describe the sort of Christian man that I really wanted – I only remember that I insisted to God that it happen NOW in order that I be rescued from this temptation. The next day I met him – an itinerant Christian evangelist who swept me off my feet – we were married two months later! Over the first few weeks of my married life I testified to the miracle power of God wherever I went pointing to the efficacy of the scripture about “the fervent prayer of a righteous man” etc. even though during those first few weeks I was puzzled as to why I felt so unhappy and fearful. To cut a long story short, within a few years, I bowed out of the marriage, my soul nearly destroyed by the daily grind of cruel emotional and mental abuse. There appeared to be no healing or solution to his psychopathy because he was in continual denial/telling lies and believing them.
You can imagine how this experience caused me to re-evaluate everything I had ever understood about God, prayer etc. Did I force God into a corner with my insisting prayer, obliging him to answer in a way that He knew wasn’t good for me? Could this situation be likened to the Israelites asking for a king and God giving them what they wanted despite knowing a king would not be good for them.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Judy, thanks for sharing your story. I don’t want to pretend I have immediate answers to your questions, but this is a part of what Ray and I will likely discuss in our next episode. We’re hoping to record tonight, if all goes as planned, but hopefully very soon, if not then.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:47 am
Hey guys! We just recorded part 1 of what will probably be a 2 part episode dialoging about different comments from Sid, Paula, & Judy. I really appreciate your vulnerability in bringing your experiences, views and questions to the table. You guys are great and we really appreciate you!
November 17th, 2010 at 7:07 am
I look forward to the listening :o)
PS…you’ll be glad to know I’m sure that seven years after that disasterous marriage, I married in 2007 a lovely kind Christian man and I couldn’t be more content :o)
June 3rd, 2011 at 2:53 am
God is a mystery. No man can fathom God’s wisdom. No man can fully understand God.