Stricken by God? with Brad Jersak, Part 2
In this conclusion of Ray’s 2-part interview with Brad Jersak (part 1 is here), Ray and Brad continue their discussion about the atonement, our role in the death of Jesus, the role of the Father in the death of Jesus, and the implications of atonement theory on our view of the Father as well as our understanding of salvation and reconciliation.
While Ray and Steve attempted to record their reactions and thoughts on the entire interview at the conclusion of the episode, they ended up recording for quite a while, so their fuller thoughts and reactions will appear next time in an episode of their own, but in the meantime, you are welcome to comment yourself on all that is shared here.
You are welcome to visit Brad at his website (bradjersak.com). We so appreciate Brad’s time in coming on the show, and look forward to another interview that will be posted sometime in the future where Ray and Brad talked about Brad’s book “Her Gates Will Never Be Shut”.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 1:03:50 — 58.5MB) | Embed
September 17th, 2011 at 11:54 am
I really have enjoyed discovering you guys. I have thought about the issues for some time. I appreciate the references to history as I was a history major and really love the history of the church.
After sometime of working on this myself, and granted I still in process, I have come to see that Scriptures do not present an either or ie. it is either penal or curative. It seems to be both. The problem for the western church and evangelicalism in particular is that we have elevated the penal above the curative creating a partial gospel.
Some how Jesus did take MY sin into Himself and the sins of the whole world. Jesus is the Lamb that was slain “before the foundation of the world”. I think the love story that God is telling involved Him sacrificing Himself for our good. WE needed justice and one day God will judge the living and dead.
It is clear to me now that in the cross God is not satisfying His anger He is demonstrating His love and affection. The wrath is on sin because to continue to identify with our sin we will perish because sin produces death. Part of our dilemma is not that we are bad, but that we are dead. We need life and Jesus’ removing sin and giving us His life cures me of the effects of sin.
Anyway, still working it out. By the way I really can relate to you guys. I too am a musician and for 26 years was a B. Dalton Bookstore manager. Also a similar journey. Would love to me you guys sometime and talk for about 5 or 6 hours!
Tim
September 18th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
Hey Tim,
Welcome! We are glad to have you along 🙂
Feel free to comment as often as you like and to agree/disagree and help us think these things out.
I don’t think that I can say any longer that the death of Christ was penal from the side of God. Obviously, Jesus’ death was penal in that He suffered the penalty of death as a threat to both the Roman and Jewish authorities, but I don’t believe anymore that Jesus was being punished by Father for our sins. I don’t see how it can be said that Jesus bore the punishment we deserved for our sins and at the same time that God forgave us. If Jesus paid for our sins than I don’t think it can be said that they were forgiven. Forgiveness by definition is to release someone from a debt without payment, don’t you think?
Anyway, we are glad to have you join the conversation. Good to have another fellow bookstore guy along 🙂
September 19th, 2011 at 11:46 pm
I really liked these episodes with Brad Jersak, in fact, I keep going back and listening to them, over and over. Mostly because I’m just trying to understand. I also bought the book, I’m still reading it, it is not an easy read…well, some of the chapters are pretty easy but some are down right difficult. I really like what Brad writes, but I knew I would, I enjoyed listening to what he had to say. I love, love the chapter from Brita Miko! I keep trying to read the chapter from E. Robert Ekblad, I want to really understand what he’s saying, but I have to keep looking up things in the dictionary and wiki too. Sharon Baker was a good read also, I’ve thought about getting some of her books. But I’m pretty sure I’d like to read some more of Brad’s books.
You guys just keep having some of the most interesting people in your podcasts, the kind that makes me ponder about things I’d thought had been pondered enough! Great job!
September 20th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
Sue,
I am so glad that you enjoyed the conversation with Brad and that you bought the book. Some of the authors are definitely more difficult to read than others, but overall it is just so refreshing to get this perspective on the atonement.
I would recommend that you read Sharon Baker’s book “Razing Hell”. It is an easy read and there is a lot of good stuff in there on the character of God. Also, we will be posting another couple of interviews with Brad in the future. One should be coming up in the next few weeks about his book “Her Gates Will Never Be Shut”. If you are interested in the topic of hell this book is really interesting. Brad traces the history of our ideas of hell and really brings up some fascinating facts. I think you will really enjoy the conversation with him.
Thanks for your kind words. I’m glad you are enjoying the conversations!
September 21st, 2011 at 10:06 am
Did I hear correctly, are some (Stricken by God contributors) challenging the idea of “Penal Substitution”? If so, I think they are missing some key points. Suppose you are meeting with friends for breakfast/coffee for discussions and suppose you want to move these meetings towards something more “institutional”, what better foundation can you find? The beauty is that Penal Substitution covers all past sins and you start with a zero balance. Now you just need to set up a maintenance program (i.e. like for a car warranty), so selecting a few A-types to deliver regular weekly messages on what you should do (i.e. talks filled with bull-should), and don’t forget the tithe. Sure maybe the early Ecclesia wouldn’t even recognize this format, but hey none of those guys are around anymore. Plus this approach has been popular for centuries so no one can patent it either. I can’t think of a better start, or am I missing something?
September 24th, 2011 at 9:08 pm
Jim,
🙂
True words. The traditional views of God as the angry judge punishing Jesus for our sins has certainly helped to continue the cycle of fear-based religion for a long time.
BTW…I love “bull-should”…gonna have to use that one 😉
April 3rd, 2013 at 3:17 pm
So glad to have found this podcast! I’ve been traversing the waters of universalism, atonement theories, theosis, nonviolence, religion/politics/anarchy for many years now. I wish I had known this community was here working through many of the same concerns.
Not sure who may or may not be aware of this book: “Inhabiting the Cruciform God” by Michael Gorman. Very much fits with these discussions – theosis, kenosis, justification, purity, nonviolence, Girard/Hardin… lots of material packed in to a short read that would be well worth it for someone comfortable with theological discourse (though it is still approachable for lay readers).
Loving the series, guys!