Thanks for taking the time to reply (sounds like you have a pretty full plate right now). Just for the further sharpening of the discussion, I wanted to offer a few more comments.

I do think your comment that my conclusion is based on my experience is a fair comment. My view of the world is biased and reflects my past, my American culture, my parents, etc. I suspect we are much less objective than any of us think.

But I think you are really after a deeper point. Which is – where do you find or how do you determine truth? If it is simply by our individual experiences than truth will be in the eyes of the beholder. Allow me to make two quick comments – first, Jesus said He was truth. So, I do believe that truth is embodied in a person not a proposition. I think He is willing and interested to lead us into all truth. And truth is bound in Him. Second, I seek to discern truth by listening to Christ as He speaks to me, examining scripture as I understand it, and listening to the Body of Christ. I try to align all three together as much as possible – though it can be messy and it is through my lens of reality.

Having come from the Charismatic background, I held to the belief that God is a healer. I read in Isaiah that healing is part of the work of Christ. I see how Jesus lived His life. One time, it says that all who came to Him were healed and delivered of evil spirits. I believe He was a full demonstration of the Kingdom of God coming to the earth. I draw the conclusion from scripture that healing, health is God’s desire – as is peace, love, etc.

Personally, I believe that God is good and that He takes no pleasure in seeing us suffer. At the same time, His creation groans, things are broken and we as clay vessels – are in His loving hands. We are imperfect and see through a glass darkly. This side of eternity, I do not expect to see a perfect state. But one day, every tear will be wiped away. So, I am ok with pursuing healing, peace, love while living in the reality that it is a journey.

Rather than searching for a formula or principle on how to ‘do healing’, I seek to know and be known by Him. I want to know His heart. I want to – as Jesus did – hear what He says and do what He does – in His timing. I pray for those who are sick and believe in both His salvation and compassion. I also put on bandaids and take aspirin.

Most importantly, I live with the tension of both – both His willingness and ability to heal and my experience of seeing it happen rarely. When it happens, I celebrate. When it doesn’t, I remain grateful. I no longer look to assign blame – my lack of faith, the person’s lack of faith, my God’s lack of desire. I trust in His goodness.

I would never suggest you stop seeking His healing. My hope in the original thread is to suggest it is not a formula to be learned or a principle to be practiced. Instead, it is a relationship to be enjoyed.

Not sure that clears anything up. Thanks for listening.

At any rate, you spelled out pretty clearly on our first Atonement episode thread that your position is based mostly on the lack of healing that you see manifested today.

For some reason, I never did respond to you at that point, so I’ll give a brief response here.

I think that position (I don’t see healings consistently today = healing must not be available to all who believe) strikes me as a bit of a cart-before-the-horse position. It may satisfy Ockham’s Razor, but as a matter of faith, it’s backwards in my opinion.

In your comments back on the Atonement episode, you acknowledged all the scriptural evidence I gave, but then fell back on “It doesn’t always happen, therefore it must not be something we can count on.” I think it is exactly that position that puts us in a place of doubt.

I, myself, fall into that trap way too often because everyone around me (other than my dear wife) is saying the same thing. “God doesn’t always heal, so you can’t believe healing is yours.” And this recent illness for me (which is completely gone now, thankfully) is a good example. Surrounded by that view constantly in our culture and in our churches makes it near impossible to hold onto the realization that every time Jesus mentions why/how a person got healed, he places the emphasis squarely on their faith. I don’t think we can dismiss that simply on the basis of our own anecdotal evidence.

I don’t have any illusions that you and I will see eye to eye on this, but did feel like I owed you an answer from way back when.

At the risk of getting into a debate about that topic, though, I would simply ask: What is the basis for your conclusions? Is it simply pragmatic that, because not everyone gets healed these days, it must not always be the Father’s will to heal? Or do you base your view on scriptural evidence? Or is there some other basis?

I’m just curious.

Glad to hear your most recent podcast. Welcome back. Steve hope you fully recover from your bout of sickness.

I just wanted to say that I appreciated your comment on your belief for healing and the fact that you are still struggling. Don’t get me wrong, I wish you had been healed and personally believe God is a healer.

That being said, I had taken issue with your prior comments that said healing is a formula. That it is just a question of faith. while I certainly respect your conviction, I am no longer of that opinion. I no longer believe that it is God’s intention to always heal if we would just pray right, have the right amount of faith, etc. We are bound to Him in releationship. The relationship is dynamic. God is good. God is able and willing to heal. As we grow in our relationship with Him, we can continue to pray for healing but trust His goodness even when it doesn’t occur. My two cents.

Welcome! Thanks for stopping by. I look forward to hearing your input on the conversations.

Thanks for listening! I appreciate your tone and the fact that you still listen even in the midst of disagreeing with many of our thoughts. I truly appreciate and admire that.
The part of John Piper’s statement that I was really wanting to hone in on was this:

Conclusion: The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin.

While this statement does not promote the idea of God’s judgement on the ELCA per se, the idea of a warning does seem to carry with it the concept of impending judgement does it not? Also the idea that Mr. Piper can discern a warning from God in one of hundreds of tornadoes in the United States seems to me to be problematic. Are all natural disasters warnings? I think that a better word would be “reminder”. Maybe this is what Mr. Piper was getting at anyway, but if so, I just wish he would have said so.

You might want to check out Greg Boyd’s response
to John Piper’s blog post for another take on it.

Thanks for taking the time to join the dialog. Your thoughts are welcome here any time.